WottC Miniature Handbook Same Mistake as Chainmail?

[TheAuldGrump]

I had some small amount of interest in the miniature rules, if not the figures.

Read the preview on WotC's website. Sounds very much like Chainmail take II.

I don't know how other folks feel, but the reason I didn't have anything to do with Chainmail was because of the insanely useless scale of the game. Come on! A dozen figures to a side?

If I want that small a battle I'll just run using D&D. Or possibly Mordheim. What I want for large scale combat in D20 is a tool for my campaign.

What I was hoping for, but apparently will not see is a system for large battles, with 50 to 200 or more models to a side. I have mass battles from time to time in my campaign., sometimes the PCs are involved, other times to determine setting events. Currently I use the OMCS by Mongoose, but I really wanted something more tactical.

In any event, I thought the reason Chainmail flopped was because of the scale they chose. Was I wrong in this, or has WotC gone and built Deathstar 2?

The Auld Grump

 

[EricNoah]

Yeah, I don't quite understand the thinking myself. I guess you could argue that the potential target for this product line might be a D&D player, but also might not be a D&D player.

I got a box of the minis as a free preview from WotC and besides 16 figs I got terrain cards, rules, stat cards, a battle mat (basically a folded poster with a grid), and a d20. As I was looking through the stuff, deciding what to keep (the figs, the terrain cards, the battle map, the die) and what to toss (the rule booklet, the stat cards), it occurred to me that this might be a kind of ideal game for folks who sorta like the idea of D&D but don't want to bother with the biggest challenge -- finding a DM. The rule book is the DM, in a sense. Sure there's no plot, no character development or improvement, but you get to have battles.

It's not for me, but it does seem to be something in between a boardgame and an RPG, and that might appeal to some.

 

[drnuncheon]

Not to hijack, but if you want a really good large-scale mass combat system for D&D, grab the D&D miniatures and then for rules go for Malhavoc Press' Cry Havoc. It's like the Combat chapter of the PHB on a large-unit scale.

J

 

[trancejeremy]

They're going after the Mage Knight market, not D&D players.

The original versions of MK were skirmish games, so that is what this is.

Plus, quite honestly, few people could afford to play full scale army games, at least right away. In terms of both time & money.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Not to hijack, but if you want a really good large-scale mass combat system for D&D, grab the D&D miniatures and then for rules go for Malhavoc Press' Cry Havoc. It's like the Combat chapter of the PHB on a large-unit scale.

J

Sure you meant to hijack!

Cry Havoc is already on my list of wants, I was just hoping that WotC would do better this time.

Does anyone know if the Miniatures Handbook will have an actual to goodness mass combat system?

The Auld Grump

 

[pogre]

I had some small amount of interest in the miniature rules, if not the figures.

I don't know how other folks feel, but the reason I didn't have anything to do with Chainmail was because of the insanely useless scale of the game. Come on! A dozen figures to a side?
<snip>
What I was hoping for, but apparently will not see is a system for large battles, with 50 to 200 or more models to a side.
The Auld Grump

Man, this is dissapointing. I agree I was hoping for MASS COMBAT - not more skirmish rules. Why couldn't they write the mass combat rules and derive the skirmish rules from those if necessary. Time to give Cry Havoc a look I guess.

 

[William Ronald]

I am uncertain if the Miniature Handbook will be a success for WotC. I do not know how large of a market there is for a miniatures game. IF it is going up against MageKnight, the WotC game will have to compete against an established brand --- not always an easy task.

So, is this a product to get people into D&D? A product to get D&D players to buy more miniatures? Both?

I am having a VERY hard time trying to get a read on WotC's intentions on this product. I hope it is not a failure for WotC's sake. Hasbro might not be pleased, especially since the past year saw the end of the once profitable Pokemon line for WotC.

 

[Wombat]

Personally I found the battle system in Green Ronin's Testament to be pretty much what I am after for large scale warfare in a roleplaying game. Not too much detail, lots of action, and emphasis on characters.

It looks like the "miniatures system" for D&D3.5 is just going to be "D&D Ultimate Combat" -- lots of pushing individual figures around on a chessboard and following the rules as laid out in the PHB, DMG, & MM.

Personally, that does not sound satisfying at all. It is neither truly a set of miniatures skirmish rules nor a set of warfare miniatures rules -- it is just D&D mass combat... with random figures and no customization.

Overall this products rates a giant **ho hum** from my group. Even the one guy in our group who plays HeroClix is uninterested.

 

[MerricB]

Rightio, I see a few misconceptions abounding around here.

The D&D Miniatures line has three purposes:

* To provide a stand-alone skirmish-level wargame. This is what you get in the box. Additional rules for this are in the D&D Miniatures Handbook.

* To provide miniatures for D&D. This is also what you get in the box, once you add the RPG rules.

* To provide a stand-alone mass-combat wargame. This is what you get in the D&D Miniatures Handbook.

The game covers all three bases. Get the Miniatures Handbook if you just want the rules for a mass-combat game.

With regard to the skirmish-level game, it's a step above normal D&D combat (and an alternative to Mordheim), in that one player controls 4-12 characters rather than just the 1:1 or 1:2 ratio common in most D&D games.

Cheers!

 

[Green Knight]

I was always under the impression that the Miniatures Handbook WOULD in fact have mass combat rules, and that it was only the little booklet in the starter box that was skirmish rules.

I'll have to look it up, but I'm pretty certain that there are, in fact, mass combat rules in that book.