WottC Miniature Handbook Same Mistake as Chainmail?

[MacMathan]

It would be ironic if WOTC ended up putting out their version of Spellfire with the new minis product.

As I remember Spellfire was the then TSR trying to cash in on WOTCs cardgame craze. Now it seems like this is Wizards attempt to cash in on the Magenight collectable mini craze.

I would feel better about it if they were not randomly packed and if the bases were, oh lets see, square perhaps like the DnD grid system.

 

[Darkness]

What really cheeses me is that Miniatures Handbook. It sounds like there's plenty of stuff in there (new classes, PrCs, spells, etc.) for people like me who keep the minis to a minimum in their D&D games and actively aren't interested in playing their minis game. I hope it's rules are completely playable without their skirmish game, as I don't need skirmish-level rules.

W3rd, mate, w3rd.
If the stuff in there is useful to me, I'll get the book even though I won't start using miniatures in my games.
And from what I've heard so far, it seems like it will be useful...

 

[pogre]

If I wanted to play a skirmish or wargame, I'd break out my Mage Knight Warhammer and Mordheim stuff. WOTC already dropped the ball once, with Chainmail, and they'll probably do it again with this. WOTC should do what they do best and stick to RPGs, preferaby with more Modern support

This is a reasonable position, but I disagree. The introduction to the 1st edition PHB always fired my imagination. I don't have it in front of me, but Gary Gygax wrote about the ideal campaign of a build up to a world level where characters rule kingdoms and command armies. That idea still captures my imagination and it would work a lot better if there were mass combat rules that dove-tailed into this concept.

I agree there will be better miniatures games, however I like the idea of a mass combat system that is compatible with the table top D&D.

I used to play a ton of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and occassionally characters would get caught up in a mass combat situation and we would use Warhammer Fantasy Battle. It was a lot of fun for us.

Adding a roleplay element to a mass combat situation really adds something to the game. A pure point based game no longer appeals to me much. Give me a battle where the PCs home nation's independence stands in the balance!

Clearly, not everyone wants this type of game. Many (perhaps most) want to play their RPG separate and apart from their wargames. But, I'm glad they're trying it. I may not like the mage knight aspects of it, but if there is mass combat I'm going to try it.

 

[Green Knight]

and if the bases were, oh lets see, square perhaps like the DnD grid system.

This complaint has never made an ounce of sense to me. Why should it matter if the edges of the base don't perfectly align with the grid lines? So long as it fits within the grid itself, what's the difference?

The only difference I see is that round bases are BETTER than square bases. How? Because you can position the miniature in any direction you like, without the corners of the base overlapping the gridline.

This matters when you have a bunch of miniatures squished together, and they've all got something or other sticking out beyond their base line. Whether it be a tail, a weapon, a cape, shield, etc. With square bases, if you butt two of those guys together, then there's only so many ways you can face a character to get them to align next to each other without causing any problems. And if you don't, then you gotta push one of them off the grid, which means that you gotta push the next miniature off the grid, etc, etc, etc. Before you know it, you got a slew of miniatures which're all straddling two grid boxes, rather than staying neatly in their own grid boxes.

This usually isn't an issue when there're a few figures on the board, but when there're a lot of people fighting in really cramped quarters, trust me, it becomes an issue! Eventually it's gets to the point that you just have to take out the miniatures and replace them with pennies, which defeats the whole point of HAVING miniatures to BEGIN with!

Which is why circular bases are better than square bases. Because you've got more than just 4 directions in which you can point a miniature, and allow for him to fit next to another miniature who's got any number of protrusions, and still stay within the gridline.

But even ignoring all the benefits of round over square bases, I still don't get the need of some people to have their base edges align perfectly to the grid lines. What is it, some kind of psychological need to see geometric shapes go together? It makes no sense, and I have yet to see anyone explain just WHY it's so important that the bases be square, beyond saying that "They have to be square because the grids are square".

 

[rounser]

how to convert PCs into mass battle characters.

Not a good sign, but too early to judge. Suggests that maybe WotC doesn't grok that the idea of a PC dying under the auspices of different stats and rules just because they're on the battlefield is a bad thing?

And, if this is successful, I wonder if the Miniatures Rules might end up a prototype of 4E?

 

[Lela]

I hope it is not a failure for WotC's sake. Hasbro might not be pleased, especially since the past year saw the end of the once profitable Pokemon line for WotC.

Sudden image of Darth Vader choking some random Admiral. . .

 

[StumpwaterJack]

If you're concerned that mass combat rules won't be given their due in this book, I suggest picking up Cry Havok now and putting your mind at ease.

It's extremely well reviewed by your peers on this board, it sets out to make exactly what you've asked for, and you can send a message to the entire RPG community that you don't just buy what WotC puts on the shelf, you buy the best product available.

Getting a great product while making a bold and dramatic statement for all the world to hear? Sounds like a no-brainer

SJ

 

[kengar]

Though I don't have hard numbers for this, I would imagine part of the decision to stick to skirmish level also has to do with the fact that GW would hand WOTC's kiester to them on a platter if they tried to compete with WHFB & WH40K, etc.

WOTC is big stuff in RPG's & CCG's, but GW is like Micro$oft when it comes to the minis market.

 

[TiQuinn]

I think the focus on the skirmish level is due to popularity plus low startup cost for the customer. GW may be the leader in mass combat games but it's a big fish in a small pond. How large can that market truly be?

I think WotC sees the success of Mage Knight over here, and Confrontation in Europe and wants to introduce their own line and captialize on their brand and mindshare. IMO, if the minis are good, and the rules are fun and easy, then they will have a winner on their hands.

 

[Henry]

Cry Havoc, and let slip the WotC Mini Handbook.

Skip Williams' book is quite good, as I previewed the tactical system at Gencon, and as I read the army system, I find myself taking to it more and more. If only I had something similar about 4 years ago, when I was prepping for a massive war in my homebrew campaign!!!