Would a feat that did this be too powerful?

[Maximillian]

I don't mind the feat, as long as it has prerequisites. Not just statistical and skill rank based either. I think it's on par with Spring Attack, and should represent a significant EXPENDITURE. Maybe...

Lightning Feint
Prereqs: Combat Reflexes, Imroved Initiative, Bluff Skill 7 Ranks
Bonus: You may execute a feint maneuver as a move-equivalent action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.


Hey, also, Nail, I don't think that feinting is the sort of thing you get used to. A good fighter, if he deals with feinting a lot (i.e. a duelist, fencer or anyone who fights one-on-one) should have plenty of Sense Motive ranks. You go into every fight PRESUMING your opponent will feint. It's that way in boxing.

 

[Hashmalum]

How about this?

Improved Feint[General]
You may forfeit an attack to make a feint attempt.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6, Bluff skill 5 ranks, Expertise.
Benefit: Once per round as part of the full attack action, you may give up one of your attacks to make a feint.
Normal: Making a feint is a standard action.

Since you have to make a full attack action, you're still giving up your move action, but now you're giving up an attack as well. OTOH, it's still better than feinting and attacking every two rounds without the feat.

Thoughts?

 

[Hypersmurf]

How about:

Quicker Than the Eye [General]
Your hands can move so quickly that observers don't see what you've done.

Prerequisite: Dexterity 19+.
Benefit: While under direct observation, you can make a Bluff check as a move-equivalent action, opposed by the Spot checks of any observers. If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere while you take a partial action. If your partial action is an attack against someone who failed the opposed check, that opponent is denied a Dexterity bonus to AC.

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

Hey, also, Nail, I don't think that feinting is the sort of thing you get used to. A good fighter, if he deals with feinting a lot (i.e. a duelist, fencer or anyone who fights one-on-one) should have plenty of Sense Motive ranks. You go into every fight PRESUMING your opponent will feint. It's that way in boxing.

Actually, I think the BAB takes care of this already. That is: experienced fighters have more "tricks" up their sleeves, and thus hit more often. So I guess I'm not even sure "feinting" as a combat tactic should even be an option.

Since it is, as a DM I'd probably throw in circumstance modifiers if the PC tried it too often. But, as Guilt Puppy (now where did that name come from, hmmm?) rightly pointed out, even hefty circumstance penalties won't reign in the higher level rogue.

So making it a feat at the end of a chain sounds like a good idea, as does Hasmalum's idea of having to use a full attack action.

(reads Hypersmurf's post; smacks forehead) Oh, and Hypersmurf: No fair bringing in the splatbooks on this. This is house rules, remember? We're supposed to be floundering out here all by ourselves.

 

[Hypersmurf]

oh, and Hypersmurf: No fair bringing in the splatbooks on this. This is house rules, remember? We're supposed to be floundering out here all by ourselves.

... I wish I could tell if you're serious or not...

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

I'm not...

Text edited for intended humor value.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

Quicker than the Eye works, solely on the account that Spot is more heavily taken than Sense Motive. I'd change it to make it a full-round action: You make the Bluff check, then a partial action as part of that "Improved Feint" action. As written, it seems like the partial action is a bonus, meaning you'd still get your standard action after that. (Which you could also take as a Feint, heh.)

Another problem is the dex-based prereq: It should almost certainly be Charisma-based (it seems like a much more Cha-Rogue schtick), which as a prereq helps balance it a little. Cha 15+ is where I'd put it if I was really paranoid about balance, 13+ if I actually wanted people to take it .

Giving up attacks in the full attack is worse, IMO... As a move-equivalent, you feint, then get one attack... Suddenly you're getting your bonus attacks as well (granted, you suffer the multiple attack penalty, but that brings me to The central problem, however, is that not all attacks in the full attack action are equal. You could drop the last one each round, and assuming you're not forced to move, every round after the first you're getting sneak attacks at your highest BAB, plus any bonus attacks before your last.

Sticking it at the end of a Spring-Attack style tree is also fine. Deciding on the Prereqs is a little tough (Expertise and Combat Reflexes are good choices, but they do make it a little stiff... Basically that requires a decent Int and Dex already, plus you'd almost certainly have to throw Cha in as well) but could work. I don't think you need Bluff ranks as prereqs: All that really does is alienate the few fighters (and heck, Paladins) who might otherwise take it (for some mysterious reason). A req. BAB of +6 seems appropriate as well, to seat it at an appropriate level of skill.

 

[Nail]

NIce ideas, Guilt Puppy....but seriously, we want to know about yer screen name!

 

[Guilt Puppy]

NIce ideas, Guilt Puppy....but seriously, we want to know about yer screen name!

I saw a sign in my home town advertising The Quilt Show. I misread it as "The Guilt Show" at first, and decided it would be a good name for my web site (currently defunct.) At one point, the site's design was based around puppies. At the same point, I had a sort of joking obsession with five-letter names (David Bowie, Willy Wonka, Woody Allen, et cetera). At the same point, I happened to pick up an AIM account: My normal nick (Skywise) was taken, and given all the above, I chose "Guilt Puppy."

I use that now as often as Skywise. Don't know why I didn't register as Skywise here (more appropriate, but maybe too appropriate -- it's from a comic book about elves!), but there you have it.

But don't ask me to explain why I go by Wayne when my real name isn't Wayne. That is a long story.

</hijack>

 

[Khorod]

Feint using Bluff strikes me as pointing over a guy's shoulder and widening your eyes. Or something like that.

Feinting in fencing is about using psychology and finesse to control where your opponent puts his weapon- up high, going for a frontal attack that is apparently unguarded against, etc. The dex version is pretty much abstracted into partial defense/Expertise I suppose.

I think it works with the Full-Attack action. You can either run around the battle field, take a moment to distract a guy, next round attack him while he's not looking... or you can walk up to a guy and proceed to enter an attack routine. The benefit of a feint affects the attacks that follow it. So, a high level fighter could make a normal attack, then feint, then gain a feint bonus for the rest of the round.