Would anyone prefer spellcasting to stay as it is?

[Geron Raveneye]

Strictly from the 3E core books, or simply D20 magic systems? Because then you simply hit a floodgate of optional, but working, systems. The only caveat is that you shouldn't try to make too many of them work side by side.

I wonder at a lot of posters calling the standard D&D magic system "outmoded", "outdated", or any other derogatory terms. It simply is one way of representing a system for spellcasting. You can have all other kinds of flavours with D&D/D20 too, like mana-based systems (for easy access, replace the wizard with the psion, replace the psionic stuff with the spells, and you're done), you can have feats & skills, you can have a system where magic costs life energy (see Midnight, where it takes a while to cast mighty spells and can daze you (Sovereign Stone and a half-dozen other variants. Even something like Arcana Unearthed, that combined the flexibility of the sorcerer with the variety of the wizard.

The only thing I'd hate to see is a wizard who constantly throws magic around without really paying something for it, for the simple reason that it will make magic even more everyday than it already is in 3E with the overflow of magical items and magically endowed classes/prestige classes. Being a wizard used to be not about the "blasts per encounter" ability, but about the role of intelligent and mysterious worker of a force that only a few can master, and that can defy the laws of reality.

But on the other hand...from what I got so far about the changes in 4E, I'm not the target audience for the new edition by FAR. Which is okay, too, since it is also about bringing in new blood...and if the powers that be think giving the new blood shiny powers that never wane, or will be back in time to kill the next pack of monsters, then I'm sure they have a damn good reason for that.

And after all, I never used to play with the "old grognards" back then either when I started out. We were a bunch of teens and a few Basic Sets, and all that complicated AD&D stuff that the "adult" players preferred was just one more reason we stayed among ourselves. So maybe, 3E will turn out to be the AD&D of modern D&D history, and 4E will be the edition that pulls in the current "video game" generation. Who knows. It would be for the good of the hobby for sure.

 

[Maliki]

I think its hard to say if the change will be bad or good before seeing the new system. As of right now I don't have a problem with the way magic works in 3E (speaking only of the core books. I don't know anything about rules from other books). I see some folks seem to think that a wizard who has used all his spells is useless, if they only see wizards as walking wands then that is where the problem is, not in the class itself.

 

[Arkhandus]

I'd prefer it retain the same spellcasting system as D&D has had for so long - but then, I'm likely to never pick up 4th Edition anyway cuz I haaaatesssses it, so that opinion probably doesn't matter. :\

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

i'm glad its changing. i'm pretty sick of the standard vancian system and when the expanded psionics handbook was released that system became our default spellcasting system.

 

[SSquirrel]

D&D is D&D because of at least a small bunch of sacred cows. If you remove the sacred cows, why still calling it D&D? Just because it sells better? We got a myriad of other RPG that strode away from the sacred cows of D&D significantly. I don't see why the core D&D should try to move away from itself, when we can then choose 100 other games with mana systems etcetera...

Because WotC/Hasbro wants to actually SELL the game and enough of the players have begged for Vancian magic and other aspects that it becomes more clear that keeping the sacred cows will have a (possibly significantly) reduced number of sales, and they don't want that. They are trying to grow the game and make it more interesting to more people. Outdated and inflexible ideas need to be re-examined. They're doing this.

I still find it funny that I'm sort of championing 4E here when I really don't see myself playing it at release heh



Geron>We refer to it as outdated or outmoded b/c, to us, it is. Personally, I've played a ton of RPGs over the years and many (maybe even most) of them had a magic system I preferred to the D&D system. My 2 favorite magic systems anymore are probably Arcana Evolved and Mage:The Ascension (1st and 2nd Ed, there was no revised and I hate the NWoD heh). Oddly enough, the Palladium magic system is probably right up there too. I won't pretend taht system is very well balanced from spell to spell, but I liked the power point system, reasonably quick mana regen, etc. The Everquest RPG did a good job on that angle too.

 

[JustinA]

Out of pure curiosity, since it has already been confirmed that spellcasting will undergo serious changes, is there anyone who is less enthusiastic about it?

I want the core of the system to remain 9 levels of Vancian spellcasting. That's always been a major part of D&D and I feel that, without that core, the game isn't going to feel like D&D to me any more.

But I think you can accomplish that while still giving the spellcasters abilities to manage at will, per encounter, and per day (which accomplishes the stated design goal of making it so that the wizard doesn't have to leave his niche and grab a crossbow to remain useful). The trick is simply making the traditional Vancian magic the place where you handle the per day abilities, while handing the at will and per encounter abilities through supplementary and complementary systems.

If you change Monopoly until it looks like Chess, then it isn't Monopoly any more. There are core elements of D&D which have to remain or it's nonsensical to call it D&D any more.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Outdated and inflexible ideas need to be re-examined. They're doing this.

Okay...just me being curious, and NOT only aimed at you, SSquirrel...but could SOMEbody here please explain to me, in the light of what was actually done with the "outdated and inflexible" system of D&D magic in 3E/D20 rulebooks, why it is viewed as outdated and inflexible? The only better version of a magic chapter in the PHB would be to collect ALL the variants of it as "optional", which would justify it being taken out of the PHB altogether, and put into its own Tome of Magic 4E.

 

[Evilusion]

Yes you can count me as one of those people who want to keep the magic system the way it is.

 

[catsclaw227]

I personally see Malhavoc's Arcana Evolved as a nice modern implementation of Vancian magic.

Personally, I think they can make an amalgam system, combining the best ideas from Bo9S and Arcana Evolved and develop a spellcasting system that can fit arcane/divine/psion casters alike.

 

[SSquirrel]

Okay...just me being curious, and NOT only aimed at you, SSquirrel...but could SOMEbody here please explain to me, in the light of what was actually done with the "outdated and inflexible" system of D&D magic in 3E/D20 rulebooks, why it is viewed as outdated and inflexible? The only better version of a magic chapter in the PHB would be to collect ALL the variants of it as "optional", which would justify it being taken out of the PHB altogether, and put into its own Tome of Magic 4E.

I realized it wasn't aimed at me, I just like talking 3E was definitely the most flexible system for magici n a core D&D book yet (probably almost every system in 3E is more flexible than past systems really) but I don't think they went far enough. Metamagic feats couldn't be utilized on the fly and I know I never utilized them b/c unless you're a rather high level wizard, you can't afford to turn most spells into a spell 3 or 4 spell levels higher. I believe when I turned the 3E magic system into a spell point system I made metamagic simply work as a multiplier of your costs.

Sadly I can't find my old magic system at the moment, I think it's in a notebook rather than on my comp, but I think it was very straightforward. a 1st level spell costs 1 spell point, a 5th is 5. If you cast a 3rd level spell with a +4 meta feat, it costs you 7. Simple, easy, etc. 0 level spells were unlimited cast and cost you nothing, but each slot per day of 0 spells gave you one more spell point. So if you could cast 5/4/3/2/1 you would have 5+4+6+6+4=25+whatever your prime stat added in from its chart. The only 0 level spell limitation I had to set was that the 1 point heal spells could only be cast 3 times per day on each individual. After that, the body was infused w/too much low level healing magic to gain anymore benefit from the 0 level spell. I don't see the 0 level damage spells as anything to be concerned about someone casting every round