Would somebody explain the Deathless to me?

[Geoff Watson]

They're a dodge so Elves can have 'good' undead, like in 2e FR, while everyone else has 'evil' undead; because elves are always good, even if they are elitist genocidal racists.

Geoff.

 

[Wormwood]

They're a dodge so Elves can have 'good' undead, like in 2e FR, while everyone else has 'evil' undead; because elves are always good, even if they are elitist genocidal racists.

Geoff.

None of which is true in Eberron.

 

[DM_Matt]

How many existing "Undead" might be better described as "Deathless"?

The Arch-Lich and the Baelnorn Elves of Myth Drannor probably should be and there was a Radiant Spirit back in 2e Ravenloft, a ghost of a paladin trapped in Ravenloft.

Yup. The way they are used, the Deathless basically play the same role as Baelnorn do -- and since Eberron was big on integrating other wotc hardcovers, they included the Deathless mechanic.

 

[Aaron L]

They're a dodge so Elves can have 'good' undead, like in 2e FR, while everyone else has 'evil' undead; because elves are always good, even if they are elitist genocidal racists.

Geoff.

Have you even READ the Eberron book?

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think the big thing here is that there are some people who simply can't reconcile the concept of an undead as anything but evil. All you've got to do is post "is my skeleton animating necromancer wizard evil?" and a bunch of people jump in with how animating the dead torments their souls etc etc. and brings negative energy to the world, so it's inherently an evil act to create them, regardless of the purpose.

 

[Humanophile]

I think the big thing here is that there are some people who simply can't reconcile the concept of an undead as anything but evil. All you've got to do is post "is my skeleton animating necromancer wizard evil?" and a bunch of people jump in with how animating the dead torments their souls etc etc. and brings negative energy to the world, so it's inherently an evil act to create them, regardless of the purpose.

Let me take this one step more. It might explain a lot. (Although to be frank, I prefer the concept of undead with a mild template. Makes for much more interesting debates. But that aside for the moment.)

Good is often confused with Natural, especially by people who have no idea what Nature is actually like. And while Deathless are benevolent (a statement that's a tad too pat for me), nobody in their right mind could call a deathless natural. Druids would probably be strongly driven to "put a deathless to rest", and even most normal beings would feel uncomfortable around one.

I'm of the school of though that raising undead is inherently evil; you're drawing on an inherently evil power source, and raising a skeleton to carry your luggage is like kicking a puppy to water your lawn. If I were to take on the idea of deathless, I'd personally do it as undead who hope that the good they can do outweighs the evil they're drawing on (and who often become tragic figures anyways). But if you dislike that level of moral dilemma, deathless can still be kindly, while creepy as all get out at the same time.

 

[demiurge1138]

They're a dodge so Elves can have 'good' undead, like in 2e FR, while everyone else has 'evil' undead; because elves are always good, even if they are elitist genocidal racists.

Geoff.

Have you even READ the Eberron book?

I doubt it, but I assume he's read the Forgotten Realms books, where even the genocidal racist sun elves are "good". I assume he's sarcastically suggesting a similar deal here. But, as everyone else has said, the deathless of the Elven courts aren't evil, they're just a little icky. WoTC's adherence to undead as mostly (not always) evil and the needing of a new type for BoED (which I thought was a bit needless then and is still needless now) for good undead is all that's at play.

That said, I like the Undying Court a lot more than the BoED deathless- in Eberron, they're more completely integrated (and they actually make elves alien, which I like) and have more interesting powers than the ghost-without-possession-or-serial-numbers that was the BoED's sacred watchers.

Demiurge out.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Y'know, with Eberron's loose alignments, I'm not even sure that *most* undead *are* evil. I'm reading through the Karrnath section right now and though corpses litter the pages, very little is said to imply that doing so is usually evil....I mean, the Blood of Vol does it, and they are evil (or at least lead by evil), but nobody seems to regard Karrnath's use of Undead as an abomination unto Life Itself in Eberron...

So, y'know, the zombie's not really evil, either....

 

[Aaron L]

The simple designation of negative energy as evil and positive energy as good graes on my nerves. Why is death evil? The Eqyptians certainly didn't think so. The Aeranal elves keep their ancestors around by infusing them with positive energy (the energy of life!) so they their minds don't slip off to become tormented shades in Dollurh. Undead in Eberron are quite often benevolent creatures. A holy knight dedicating part of his afterlife to defend a city from harm is an example of a good undead. A wise old elf staying on to give counsel to his descendants isn't evil.

And I've never understood why animating a skeleton to carry your luggage is any more evil than animating a pile of dirt to carry your luggage.

 

[Gez]

And I've never understood why animating a skeleton to carry your luggage is any more evil than animating a pile of dirt to carry your luggage.

Because animating the dead torments their souls and brings negative energy to the world.