Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

Would you allow this paladin character in your game?


" “Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability."

From the first post he says he will do whatever the church needs done.

If he's not lying then he is trustworthy, obedient to his authority, and reliable in that.

When the church/god/duty calls it sounds like he will answer.

That is what makes him able to qualify for lawfulness in my book.
 

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Ormiss said:
In my eyes, this is a fatal problem with "Lawful Good," because I personally feel that the law can, in many situations, counter-act the good. The whole point of Lawful Evil is that the person abuses, without breaking, a lawful system to commit acts of evil.

Of course, it could be construed that the paladin only obeys divine law. If you subscribe to that notion, nevermind my ramblings. :)
Allow me to ramble a bit, myself. ;)

There is a common misconception about the Lawful alignment - so common, in fact, that I've even seen the paid authors of RPG books screw it up from time to time.

"Lawful" doesn't have doesn't have a lot to do with following the laws of men or gods! (There is a connection, but it is less direct, and I'll touch on it in a moment.) It is an internal, behavioral descriptor - it refers to whether or not a person has an internal set of rules and organizational ideas for themselves that are relatively immutable. As opposed to someone who either does not have such rules, or for whom those rules frequently change or are ignored - someone with a "Chaotic" behavior, in other words.

The Rogue that steals whatever, whenever, as the mood hits them, with NO regard for anyone (not even bad regard, as in wanting to hurt people) and no particular rules for himself is Chaotic Something, probably Neutral. The Rogue that never steals from children, the elderly, the crippled, or anyone who has his own militia ;) , who never steals from another Rogue unless that Rogue stole from him first, who always leaves his victims with enough silver for their next meal - the Rogue that has a general Code inside himself that he is dedicated to, in other words - is probably Lawful Neutral.

(Twisted as it may seem, the Rogue who is dedicated to an internal general Code that includes things like never allowing someone to insult him without taking something they value away from them, who only commits his crimes on evenly numbered dates, and who always makes certain he knows someone's name before he kills them to take their stuff - well, he's Lawful Evil.)

The reason it frequently seems that Lawful characters will identify with the laws of men or of a particular church is because it usually (but not always) takes a Lawful minded character to come up with a general Code of laws, and since the Lawful mind follows a logic system, other Lawful characters are likely to understand and incorporate that logic - especially in situations where they may have been raised having that logic laid on top of their Lawful nature before they developed their own logics, or where (as in the case of many Paladin/Cleric characters) their own internal Code indicates taking up Duty to a greater cause, including taking up aspects of that Duty that might have never developed within themselves. Also because of the logical nature of Law, a Lawful character with no preconceptions on a particular subject who is entering a land with laws regarding that subject (say, a LN Ranger entering lands with slavery when he has never heard of it) is likely to internalize the logic of those laws - make them his own, so to speak - unless they contradict his Good/Neutral/Evil axis.

My point in all of this is that whether or not Sir Cedric's behavior is Lawful Good or not isn't as simple as comparing it to some imaginary objective standard. We need to know: A. What the law of the land he was raised in was, and whether he would have good reason to have rejected the laws of that land. B. What the laws of the land he is currently in are, and whether he (or his church) feel any particular need to abide by them. C. What the laws of his church are, and D. What Sir Cedric's own internal Code (beyond that he has obviously taken on the Duty to and code of his church) looks like.

To be honest, Sir Cedric seems to me almost like a Chaotic Good character who is just barely Lawful enough to have agreed to take up the Duty of being a Paladin - now that he has, he is determined to follow through on what that means, obligation-wise, but he just really doesn't feel his church's or his deity's code. But there is one thing about being a Paladin that goes beyond the alignment requirement - his deity called him - and so long as that deity sees him as a fit servant to empower as a Paladin, for whatever reason, that is what he is.
 

Oh, a quick postscript to my previous post: I realize some people may find places where the SRD contradicts my definition of Lawful. I don't care. :D Like I said, I've seen the authors, even ones at TSR/Wizards, screw this up before, and I sincerely believe my way of looking at it works better. After all, if Lawful meant always having to respect "the proper authorities" all the time, you'd have to ride all over the Good/Neutral/Evil spectrum to stay Lawful, just depending on what town you're riding through! And if you look at their alignment definitions, they make it look like the "Lawful" in Lawful Good means something different than the "Lawful" in Lawful Evil. I'm sorry, but Lawful should mean the same concept regardless of whatever else you tack on - but maybe that's just my Lawful nature coming out. :lol:
 
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Torm said:
Oh, a quick postscript to my previous post: I realize some people may find places where the SRD contradicts my definition of Lawful. I don't care.
But your definition of Lawful isn't relevant in this particular situation. The original post specifically limited discussion to the rules as written (the SRD) - therefore, for the purposes of this discussion, if the SRD contradicts your definition, you are wrong. ;)
Like I said, I've seen the authors, even ones at TSR/Wizards, screw this up before, and I sincerely believe my way of looking at it works better.
This is handwaving to dismiss any aspects of alignment that you don't happen to like (or happen to poke holes in your argument). That doesn't make the points less valid. ;)
After all, if Lawful meant always having to respect "the proper authorities" all the time, you'd have to ride all over the Good/Neutral/Evil spectrum to stay Lawful, just depending on what town you're riding through!
Not at all. "Lawful characters ... respect authority." That does not mean that they may not privately disagree with some of the local laws, which are not Lawful (with a capital L; i.e., "absolutely morally Lawful" as opposed to "legal"). Whom a character accepts - or should accept - as the "proper authorities" in an area will vary by alignment on the good-evil axis.
And if you look at their alignment definitions, they make it look like the "Lawful" in Lawful Good means something different than the "Lawful" in Lawful Evil. I'm sorry, but Lawful should mean the same concept regardless of whatever else you tack on - but maybe that's just my Lawful nature coming out. :lol:
I don't see it.

"Lawful" in lawful good means that the character sees "Law" as the best means to bring about good for all (i.e., laws should protect the innocent, respect life, and otherwise comply with "good"). "Lawful" in lawful neutral means the character sees law as the best way to bring about eqiutable treatment of all (the "neutral part"). "Lawful" in lawful evil means the character sees law as the best way to bring about evil (without respect for freedom, dignity, or life).

In all three cases, the "Law" is seen as the ideal means to achieving an end.

A lawful good character will reject the legitimacy of Evil laws and is therefore able to break them with no special repercussions (for instance, in a corrupt citystate it might be illegal to pray to any non-evil deity; a Lawful Good character will reject this law as it is "evil" and suffers no particular repercussions; that law is not a Law, if you will); similarly, a lawful evil character will probably reject the legitimacy of Good laws (for instance, he might reject the legitimacy of a law that requires all citizens to protect any innocent that asks for protection; after all, if he did that, he'd never be able to get around to his own ends).

It appears (to me) that this is consistent across the alignments - your alignment on the "law-chaos" axis reflects your belief in what the "Best" means to achieve the end your alignment on the "good-evil" axis dictates.

As an aside, most laws and traditions - ESPECIALLY cultural ones (to go along with your "riding from town to town" note) - are lawful with a small "l." Finding Lawful laws (with a "large L") that all characters, regardless of good-evil alignment will accept, is considerably harder.

(Hope that was clear; I didn't clarify as much as I would have liked to because it's time for me to go to lunch).

--The Sigil
 
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Torm said:
My point in all of this is that whether or not Sir Cedric's behavior is Lawful Good or not isn't as simple as comparing it to some imaginary objective standard.
By the rules as written, yes, it is. And the standard isn't imaginary, it's enumerated in the alignment descriptions. Most of the standard transcends culture... with only one notable exception...
We need to know: A. What the law of the land he was raised in was, and whether he would have good reason to have rejected the laws of that land. B. What the laws of the land he is currently in are, and whether he (or his church) feel any particular need to abide by them. C. What the laws of his church are, and D. What Sir Cedric's own internal Code (beyond that he has obviously taken on the Duty to and code of his church) looks like.
We need to know this, but only because part of the objective standard states that the character will follow tradition - we need to know what the traditions are to check him against the "Lawful" standard (and the "traditions" are really the only part of the objective standard that will change from culture to culture). The rest of the objective standard has nothing to do with tradition.

I know a lot of people here don't like "objective standards" but that IS the rules as written. If you want to tell me that you think it shouldn't be, fine, but that's not relevant to the discussion at hand (which WAS "rules as written") and is therefore a strawman.

--The Sigil

And NOW I'm off to lunch.
 

The Sigil said:
By the rules as written, yes, it is.
Well, the rules as written aren't very good and cause a lot of arguments. Mine are better. "Strawman" for the original question or not. And I said imaginery not because they didn't write one down, but because theirs doesn't work.

Iz all I'm sayin' ovah heah, see? :p
 

Really? So, in order to be respectful of human dignity, one can't condemn anything or lecture anyone on morality? Somehow I doubt you'd take that view about anything you actually think to be wrong. "Don't lecture those slavers about morality, put them down, or act like you're higher than them; lecturing people on morality is an offense against human dignity." "Don't lecture that rapist about morality, put him down, or act like you're higher than him, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. To do that is an offense against human dignity?" Sounds pretty absurd doesn't it?

It is of course, possible for "lectures" on morality to be counterproductive or offenses against human dignity. However, the idea of moral instruction inherently recognizes human dignity--it treats people as moral beings who have the potential for virtue and are worth helping along that path. Indifference would not be nearly as respectful of the dignity of a moral being.

In fact, your contention here is, itself evidence of this. What could the admonition to avoid "lecturing people about morality" be if not moral instruction? (You say we should avoid it because it's offensive to human dignity). The command implies a concern for human dignity, not the reverse. Even your confused and self-contradictory statement is evidence that moral instruction and human dignity are not opposed.

ChaosEvoker said:
And you would find it to be preserving their dignity MROE by going in and lecturing them on morality, putting them down, and acting as if you are higher than them. I am against prostitution becuase of the various consequences, but I don't find this argument to be valid.
 

Torm said:
Please clarify: How, exactly, is prostitution (the actual practice of conducting a business transaction for a sexual service, not anything that you may assume is usually associated like drug use or some such) dishonorable? I mean, I can readily see "distasteful" - but "dishonorable"?

I think I'm becoming inspired - I'm going to have to go Sir Cedric one better, and create a Paladin that actually IS a prostitute! ;)

Might not fly. even if it is or is not honorable, it is still a form of exploitation. One is taking the other for a ride, no pun intended.
 

RAW description of LG from SRD

Lawful Good, “Crusader”: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Cedric can be said to combine a commitment to oppose evil with discipline to fight relentlessly, tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

The arguments against him fitting the definition are that people expect good characters not to frequent brothels, get drunk, or be fatalistic. Some say prostitution is inherently unjust so he is not speaking out against injustice.

So I count six for fitting the definition exactly and two against.
 

Under RAW

A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment.

. . .

Alignment is a tool for developing your character’s identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
 

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