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Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

Would you allow this paladin character in your game?


Aurondarklord

First Post
I'm sorry, but the argument that trade is inherently coercive does not hold up.

Just google the word coercive. I've looked on wikipedia, on every online dictionary I can find, all of them define coercion the same way, the use of force, intimidation, or some form of undue psychological pressure to compel a person to do something against their will. Simple financial reward being offered does not meet this threshold. People frequently enter into financial bargains entirely voluntarily, often it's their own idea. If you open a shop, and sell your wares, you've decided of your own choosing to to engage in trade, no one made you do it.

Coercion, also called "duress", is also a legal defense, the law holds that a person is not criminally responsible for actions they were coerced into performing, but no court has ever considered money a form of coercion for this purpose, no matter how desperate the person being offered the money is or how badly they need it. Imagine for a second that trade WAS considered coercive...murder for hire would be legal, at least for the assassin. So obviously, that's not the case. And if trade is not inherently coercive, the whole argument that the book of exalted deeds forbids prostitution regardless of circumstances falls apart.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I've looked on wikipedia, on every online dictionary I can find, all of them define coercion the same way, the use of force, intimidation, or some form of undue psychological pressure to compel a person to do something against their will. Simple financial reward being offered does not meet this threshold. People frequently enter into financial bargains entirely voluntarily, often it's their own idea.
There is a big literature, too, on the difference between a threat and an offer. Coercion is generally understood as involving threats, not offers.

if trade is not inherently coercive, the whole argument that the book of exalted deeds forbids prostitution regardless of circumstances falls apart.
That's not true. You don't have to regard trade as inherently coercive to regard prostitution as inherently coercive. The people who earn academic salaries, and sell books, arguing that prostitution and pornography are inherently coercive might be wrong, but they're not incoherent. As I (and [MENTION=6698446]Narse[/MENTION]) noted upthread, there are well-known arguments that sex and sexuality is not a commodity, and hence not a proper object of commerce, and that any commercialisation of it is, therefore, coercive and improper as such.

Those arguments may be flawed, but they're not all that radical. I suspect that the BoED takes their soundness for granted.

I assume the Book of Exalted Deeds also takes the view that it would be wrong for a paladin to buy a slave even if the person enslaved was choosing to sell him-/herself into slavery. The idea that formally voluntary choice is a moral cover-all is a modern notion that I would associate more with economic analysis and with libertarianism than with the moral code of a paladin.
 

Aurondarklord

First Post
The paladin would not take a slave who voluntarily sold himself?

What about the vow of obedience feat? A paladin would not take on an underling who had sworn a sacred and holy vow to serve him because it's immoral?

Granted, money doesn't change hands, but it's still a form of voluntarily enslavement.

The idea of D&D, the kind of society it presents as its default, we all know what that was like in real life, aristocrats and serfs were born into their social status, the one having as their birthright absolute power over the other, who were not regarded as having any basic human rights, most people lived in abject poverty and had to do backbreaking menial labor to avoid starvation...and frequently starved anyway because the nobles decided to overtax them. Women were property, or at least an extra mouth to feed and a father had the right to marry his daughters off to whomever he pleased, even if that person was a violent drunk she wanted nothing to do with.

To make a paladin work in that kind of setting requires either sanitizing it or allowing the paladin to ignore it. But now you're telling me prostitution is so inherently bad it's IMPOSSIBLE to sanitize no matter how much authorial fiat is used, even though worse sexual practices can be cleaned up easily just by slapping the label of marriage on them? I don't buy that, and I don't buy that as the writers intent. They don't want to go into detail on these issues because they're sick of D&D being scapegoated by puritanical idiots, but if you look at the way the passage is written, it defines prostitution as evil in the context of it being exploitative and coercive, which I admit is probably what the writers considered the default, and it probably IS the default and most common form of prostitution. But they never say it can't possibly be removed from that context, and I honestly don't believe they mean to suggest it, I think it's just a case of they didn't want to cover the issue in detail because of possible controversy, and they left the language open enough to be subject to interpretation.

Reading the way it is written Pemerton, can you honestly tell me you believe there's NO POSSIBLE WAY that the way I'm looking at it is a valid one? Because if we're talking rules as WRITTEN, then to say Cedric is barred by the RAW, it has to be absolutely clear, with zero room for interpretation, that there is only one valid way to read the rules and that way says no. Otherwise it's still very much a question of rules as interpreted and DM fiat, and the rules as WRITTEN do not bar it.

Am I being a giant rules lawyer to say that? Absolutely, but this is a thread about the letter of the rules.
 
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Narse

First Post
I'm sorry, but the argument that trade is inherently coercive does not hold up.

Just google the word coercive. I've looked on wikipedia, on every online dictionary I can find, all of them define coercion the same way, the use of force, intimidation, or some form of undue psychological pressure to compel a person to do something against their will. Simple financial reward being offered does not meet this threshold. People frequently enter into financial bargains entirely voluntarily, often it's their own idea. If you open a shop, and sell your wares, you've decided of your own choosing to to engage in trade, no one made you do it.

Coercion, also called "duress", is also a legal defense, the law holds that a person is not criminally responsible for actions they were coerced into performing, but no court has ever considered money a form of coercion for this purpose, no matter how desperate the person being offered the money is or how badly they need it. Imagine for a second that trade WAS considered coercive...murder for hire would be legal, at least for the assassin. So obviously, that's not the case. And if trade is not inherently coercive, the whole argument that the book of exalted deeds forbids prostitution regardless of circumstances falls apart.

Your argument is valid. I will concede that commerce would not fall under that, and with that being the case, prostitution that would not fall under coercion, such as that given in the initial example of the thread, would probably be fine.
 

First, kudos to [MENTION=198]shilsen[/MENTION] for enjoying numerous thread necros over the last 7 years. I confess, I read the first post only, and those posted over the last few days.

That said, I would be dubious about allowing this character to be a Paladin - as conventionally described - on two counts:

1) It defies believability/verisimilitude: I find it very hard to accept that there will not be a coercive/exploitative component to prostitution given human history and experience. Yes, the DM can mandate whatever he or she feels as "societally acceptable" as far as the ethical dimensions of sexuality are concerned within the campaign, but these broader issues are not addressed. What is the relationship between the procuress and the prostitutes? What are their rights? Are they unionized?

...four of your girls at once, Catherine

Emphasis mine. Is ownership reasonably implied? By patronizing this establishment, is Cedric condoning the institution of prostitution? Of indentured sexual thralldom?

2) It violates archetype. For good or bad, the Paladin archetype is drawn from the mythical Arthurian grail-knights and the companions of Charlemagne seen through rose-tinted, medieval Aquitanian eyes: it is a specific, literary expression of an ideal. Should Paladins be chaste? Humble? Pious? Abstemious? My answer is unequivocally yes. The Paladin might practice fine amour, but the notion that he is licentious or lewd run contrary to the literary precedents.

This gives rise to a fundamental cognitive dissonance; I would regard this character as untenable, unless one redefines what Paladin actually means. The internal moral dialogue of the Paladin is what defines him; but at this point, the notion of Paladinhood is drawn into question.
 

pemerton

Legend
It seems important to me to point out that for paladins, druids, clerics, and really any class subject to an alignment limitation or a behavioral code, these restrictions exist not only to try to enforce a class archetype for role playing purposes, but as mechanical limitations, often meant to be a trade off to a power advantage for balance purposes (whether paladins or any given class subject to such a limitation actually NEEDS it to avoid being overpowered is a separate issue outside the scope of this discussion), but that is the intended purpose, the code is a mechanically enforced drawback on the class.
I'm not sure that this is true, at least not in all cases.

In AD&D the limitation on druid armour are obviously a drawback. But the weapons not so much - they seem to be for flavour as much as anything else, give that the druid gets accesss to a good one-handed weapon in the form of the scimitar.

Rangers suffer a disadvantage in being restricted in what they can own, and not being able to have henchmen until 8th level, but its not clear that Good alignment is a penalty - after all, many PCs will be good in any event without particularly suffering as a result. It seems to me to be more about archetype enforcement.

When it comes to paladins, the tithing requirement and magic item limits are obviously a disadvantage mechanic. But whether the restrictions on henchmen and acquaintances are a disadvantage or not is very campaign specific. In a traditional dungeon-crawling campaign they might be - because some of the limited supply of henchmen and allies will be evil or neutral - but in a Dragonlance-type campaign they would be no disadvantage at all, given that the game assumes all the PCs will be good in any event.

More generally, for an honour requirement to be a constraint on mechanical power requires a particular sort of campaign set up, in which being dishonourable is a regular source of powering up. I am not sure how many D&d campaigns fit that description, but I would be surprised if its a majority of them.

Allowing the player to define their own morality effectively removes the code as a mechanical limitation, since, even ignoring the question of power gamers who would deliberately abuse this to justify any behavior they deem advantageous, most players who have even a basic interest in optimizing their combat play to play the "game" aspect of D&D, wherein their goal is to defeat the monsters in combat, will not intentionally take actions they believe will violate the code and gimp their character.

<snip>

And for that matter, it is impossible to remove mechanical alignment and externally enforced objective morality without severely messing up the paladin class's balance anyway, I mean, what do you do with detect evil and smite evil then? those are key class features, especially smite evil, which is the paladin's primary situational damage source. If it is impossible to objectively determine from a mechanical perspective that a creature is or is not evil, you must rework these abilities for them to remain valid, either removing them entirely, limiting them in some other mechanical way (perhaps they only function on undead and evil outsiders?) or allowing the paladin to smite whomever HE considers evil, and all of those options considerably impact a paladin's combat effectiveness.
In a campaign in which the GM enforces alignment and codes, these are a power limitation for the paladin only if the GM is regularly framing situations in which acting dishonourably or in a chaotic or evil fashion would be mechanically advantageous. How frequent is that in the typical D&D campaign? As I said, I doubt that it is very frequent in a majority of campaigns. It probably is more frequent in a classic Gygaxian campaign. In that sort of campaign, I assume fewer people play paladins!

As for smite evil (not actually a feature of any version of D&D except 3E), how much stronger does a paladin PC become if the player gets to decide who is worthy of smiting? To put it another way, how many combats does the typical D&D party have against non-evil antagonists. My guess is, not that many. The typical Monster Manual and typical module is certainly chock full of evil monsters and NPCs!

So I have doubts that a paladin who is allowed to smite whomever the player chooses will really gain any sort of noticeable power-up.
 

pemerton

Legend
The paladin would not take a slave who voluntarily sold himself?

What about the vow of obedience feat? A paladin would not take on an underling who had sworn a sacred and holy vow to serve him because it's immoral?
But such a person is not a slave. They do not become the property of the paladin.

Today's world is full of religious who are bound by vows of chastity, poverty and obedience, but they are not slaves. In particular, if they renounce their vows, they may be moral wrongdoers (at least in the eyes of some orders), but the head of their order has no power to compel them to return. They are free to go, even if that would be a betrayal. Slaves are in a fundamentally different, unfree situation.

The idea of D&D, the kind of society it presents as its default, we all know what that was like in real life

<snip>

To make a paladin work in that kind of setting requires either sanitizing it or allowing the paladin to ignore it.
Agreed, and I posted much the same upthread when I said that the easiest way to make a paladin work is for the GM to not frame situations that raise moral quandries of the sort to which the OP gives rise.

The other option I canvassed, of course, is to put the moral power in the player's hands, so s/he can decide what attitude to take towards the social institutions of the pseudo-medieval world.

But now you're telling me prostitution is so inherently bad it's IMPOSSIBLE to sanitize no matter how much authorial fiat is used
I didn't say that - I'm not violating board rules!

I said there is a well-known argument to that effect - based on the idea that sex is not a commodity - and that I find it easy to belive that the author(s) of the BoED took that argument for granted.

Reading the way it is written Pemerton, can you honestly tell me you believe there's NO POSSIBLE WAY that the way I'm looking at it is a valid one?
I don't think it's a very tenable reading of the passage from BoED, no. I think that passage absolutely takes for granted the coercive and/or exploitative character of prostitution.

Is it viable for a fantasy RPG to depart from the BoED on that point? I'm sure it is - a certain sort of pulp-ish game, pseudo-Conanesque or pseudo-Western, might have prostitutes who aren't coerced and who provide their services purely voluntarily and even out of a love of sex (much as a blacksmith might love crafting).

But my personal view is that such a game wouldn't really have room for paladins, not for alignment/moral reasons but for genre reasons: the genre connotations of that sort of fantasy, for me at least, just don't fit with the paladin archetype.

I would be dubious about allowing this character to be a Paladin - as conventionally described

It violates archetype.[/B] For good or bad, the Paladin archetype is drawn from the mythical Arthurian grail-knights and the companions of Charlemagne seen through rose-tinted, medieval Aquitanian eyes: it is a specific, literary expression of an ideal. Should Paladins be chaste? Humble? Pious? Abstemious? My answer is unequivocally yes. The Paladin might practice fine amour, but the notion that he is licentious or lewd run contrary to the literary precedents.

This gives rise to a fundamental cognitive dissonance; I would regard this character as untenable, unless one redefines what Paladin actually means. The internal moral dialogue of the Paladin is what defines him; but at this point, the notion of Paladinhood is drawn into question.
This pretty much captures my view.
[MENTION=3887]Mallus[/MENTION] upthread made a good case for breaking from the archetype to the necessary degree, but (from other posts of Mallus's that I've read over several years) I'm pretty sure that I am much more conservative in my approach to fantasy tropes than Mallus is.
 

Aurondarklord

First Post
Sepulchrave, in response to your arguments, first that Cedric's situation is implausible...not necessarily. Shilsen uses a later piece of fiction to explain it, basically Cedric and Catherine, a former prostitute who got out, set up this brothel as a kind of halfway house to transition girls out of the life, helping them build up some savings and recover from whatever forced them to become streetwalkers or whatever before Cedric and Catherine rescued them. But even without it being spelled out for me why this is the, as someone put it earlier in the thread "stardust and gumdrops" variety of prostitution, I don't have a hard time believing in the idea that women exist who 1, like casual sex, 2, are pretty or otherwise "high class" enough that they can pick and choose their clients a bit and avoid the really distasteful ones, and 3, as a result of 1 and 2 see prostitution as a relatively easy way to make a sizable amount of money and a superior choice to the mundane menial labor jobs that would likely be the only other choices for a woman of their social class in a medieval society. Even in today's society, there are plenty of women who make such choices, just go to Nevada, or see any number of books and documentaries of the "confessions of a former high end call girl" variety, especially the blog by Brooke Magnanti that got turned into the series "secret diary of a call girl".

I also don't see the idea being "implausible" as inherently bad, D&D, and high fantasy in general frequently present a sanitized version of medieval society, which, given human history and experience, is highly implausible, and fiction in general frequently depicts the implausible as a form of escapism. That's why a solar-powered alien who can lift a planet, run at the speed of light, and shoot laser beams out of his eyeballs, but nevertheless looks exactly like an incredibly hunky human and is romantically pursued by several of the world's most beautiful women, is one of our most enduring cultural icons. Also, his best buddy the multi-billionaire who dresses up as a bat and gets EVEN MORE tail. There's a show I watch called Supernatural, which tends to go out of its way to constantly remind us, largely for the benefit of the significant female audience, how hunky and studly the two main protagonists are, in one scene, Sam, one of our heroes, is depicted as having slept with a call girl, an incredibly gorgeous one at that, and having rocked her world so much she's not only willing to leave without making him pay her, but after he insists, she gives him her card so he can call her on her night off for a freebie. I actually found the scene:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxDj06ZY40[/ame]

Is that somewhat unlikely? I dunno, what are the statistics on guys that ripped retaining call girls? But there was no outcry or controversy decrying how implausible this was. your argument, that just because something might be implausible in real life means it shouldn't ever happen in fiction, reminds me of some complaints about the most recent Bond movie, some people have argued that Bond actually rapes one of the women he sleeps with in Skyfall, even though the scene is framed as clearly and obviously consensual, the argument basically comes down to "in real life I can't imagine a woman would consent in that situation, therefore she couldn't have and it must be rape", an obviously silly argument that ignores one of the central conceits of James Bond as a character, which is that women ALWAYS want to sleep with him.

To your second point about Cedric violating archetype....well yeah, that's the whole point, but archetype =/= rules, otherwise you'll have a game where players do nothing but create the same stereotypes over and over again, you might as well play with pre-packaged characters like Lidda, Jozen, and Tordek instead of allowing the players to make up their own. In fact, if you look at the SRD explanation of alignment, they specifically caution against using it as a role playing straightjacket that restricts characters.

Now, Pemerton, it depends. I got in a big debate with JamesonCourage, I think you joined in too, about whether a paladin is allowed to kick someone in the groin. Essentially, since Cedric has a level of rogue in his build, that was a literary application of his sneak attack class skill. If you say the code restricts a paladin from using sneak attack, then you've rendered Cedric mechanically inferior by blocking off a class ability, and that DOES act as a mechanical restriction, if not due to alignment, due to the specifics of the paladin's code. and I believe that allowing a paladin to smite anyone definitely is a significant power boost, and clearly so does WOTC or they wouldn't have made so many prestige classes, like Grey Guard and Shadowbane Inquisitor, with "you get to smite anybody" as one of the main mechanical advantages.

As for religious vows being unenforceable, I'd say in D&D that's definitely not true, we're talking about a world where the Gods are very real and provable, where if you sin, and oathbreaking is generally a very great sin, especially a religious oath, you can be at risk of eternal torment in the nine hells or the abyss, which will be far worse than any punishment another mortal could inflict on you, where celestials descend from the upper planes to punish sinners, and where breaking a deal or vow can get a Kolyarut, basically a magic version of The Terminator, sent after you.

As for whether the writers take for granted that sex has some form of special moral character, considering the mention of prostitution comes as part of a passage explaining that sex in D&D is considered a normal, healthy, and natural thing, I would disagree, I would in fact say that they're specifically saying that from a rules perspective it DOESN'T have a special moral character. I think that what they take for granted is that prostitution is coercive. But "take for granted" =/= "enforce in all situations". They say that prostitution is bad because it falls under "coercive and exploitative", but logically if you invent a situation in which it DOESN'T fall under that category, then their reasoning for why it's evil no longer applies, and the book does not intend to enforce said reasoning anyway. Can we at least agree that that's sound logic and the writers did not intentionally mean that passage to bar DMs and players from ever inventing any form of prostitution that differs from their assumption about the moral character of prostitution and thus no longer falls under their logic?
 
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S'mon

Legend
or that sex is a special moral snowflake with inherent moral dangers not present in other aspects of life (contradictory to the BOED defining sex as a normal and healthy act)

The BOED does not appear to define sex for money as a normal and healthy act, or paying for sex as equivalent to paying for a new breastplate. Perhaps the authors regarded sex as in some way special? :angel:
 

S'mon

Legend
Otherwise it's still very much a question of rules as interpreted and DM fiat, and the rules as WRITTEN do not bar it.

Am I being a giant rules lawyer to say that? Absolutely, but this is a thread about the letter of the rules.

?!?! Thread title is "Would YOU allow this Paladin in your game?" Of course it is entirely about rules as interpreted, and "DM fiat".
 

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