I'd like to see a discussion of different types of Good in literature (I'd like to see this for Evil, too) - such as Good in Arthurian myth, eg John Borman's 'Excalibur', contrast with eg 'Marvel Super Heroes' Good like The Mighty Thor, and non-Juadeo-Christian conceptions. (A)D&D's Good/Evil approach seems to have its roots in Catholic theology, so it looks a little strange when applied to other mythoi. Discussing on altering the D&D alignment system to run a more authentic setting based on a different mythology/worldview (even Norse & Greek) would be good. Applying D&D morality to Greek myth results in something a lot like the Hercules TV show. Which is one, accessible, way to run such a campaign, but I'd like to see this ranked against alternative approaches.
Would you buy a Book of Exalted Deeds?
- Thread starter Enkhidu
- Start date
Sammael99
First Post
If a "Book of Exalted Deeds" was written in the same spirit as the "Book of Vile Darkness" seems to have been written, ie. give DM more tools to enhance "good" as opponents to the PCs, then I would definetely buy it.
I find the cardboard cut-out mentality of "evil adversaries" fairly boring, in the end-run. It's a lot more interesting to have a wide variety of opponents to the party and the very idea of having "good" opponents to a "good" party seems foreign to D&D thinking.
Of course, such a book would probably make Mr. Hickman go bananas waaay more than the BovD : think about it : opposing good ? How could we even dare...
Now if the BoED was yet another "Enhance your PC" book, then I would definetely pass. There's more than enough of that going around already...
I find the cardboard cut-out mentality of "evil adversaries" fairly boring, in the end-run. It's a lot more interesting to have a wide variety of opponents to the party and the very idea of having "good" opponents to a "good" party seems foreign to D&D thinking.
Of course, such a book would probably make Mr. Hickman go bananas waaay more than the BovD : think about it : opposing good ? How could we even dare...
Now if the BoED was yet another "Enhance your PC" book, then I would definetely pass. There's more than enough of that going around already...
s/LaSH
First Post
There's another use for a Book Of Exalted Deeds, and that's as fuel for a campaign with evil PCs. Some may frown upon this, but they're out there. As it currently stands, there are far too few 'good' opponents for such people. Sure, you've got elves... and humans, and dwarves, and lammasu, and a couple of others, but really, where are the goody-two-shoes to smack around?
Of course, I don't necessarily condone this... it simply appears to be a gap in the material available.
The idea of the BoED is interesting, however, and not just because of the aforementioned perspective. So long as it's done well, that is. Keep it flexible and open and put the emphasis on enriching options, not preaching or putting up restrictions.
I'd like to see more kinds of celestials (how many kinds of demons/devils/yugoloths are there by now?), more good creatures of a more mundane nature, and of course some guidelines as to what goodness is, but not restrictive ones. (I firmly believe in the sandbox approach to gaming; that is, give as little as possible and let people play with it.) An interesting idea might be a virtue system like old Ultima games had... you know, where you got rated in various attributes like valour, charity, mercy etc. Although what you'd use it for is an interesting question...
Now as to the person who mentioned Aztecs and Romans... we don't always think of them as evil, although they did some pretty abhorrent things. But think about it. In one thousand years, who will people remember from the 20th century? Probably Hitler. Only obscure scholars will have ever heard of Churchill or Roosevelt or whoever they were. (See, it's already starting to fade.) The Aztecs and Romans are remembered for exactly the same reasons: They conquered very very well. Of course, they're not here today. Were they evil? To some, certainly. It takes a certain mentality to put your own people above others then go out and conquer them. Just thought I'd mention it.
And as for books on Order and Chaos, those could actually be far more interesting because they have much less moral background. Law and chaos are opposites, and neither one is 'right' as you might describe Good. A good deal of fantasy literature deals with describing the struggle between gods of Chaos and Order.
Now whoever it was who said that a book of Law would be boring? I don't think so. Part of order is building things up. Mundane examples of Law include: How to put a legion together; How to build a monolithic monument akin to the Pyramids; How to write a set of laws that cover all the bases. Now I happen to think that writing my own laws would be pretty cool, especially if I had subjects to obey them. Then you go into extraplanar Law; there are some cool metaphysical concepts you could visit there. Crystal, for example, is a very lawful material in my mind; imagine an entire plane made of crystal, walking though a shining forest or fighting a crystal template lion that shatters easily but does more damage. The coolest thing about Law, however, is that the Borg are lawful (either LN or LE, it's difficult to decide). Seeing Borg-like foes in D&D could definitely be exciting.
Anyways, those are just my thoughts on the matter. I'm poor and probably won't buy anything mentioned here. I just think it's a cool idea.
Of course, I don't necessarily condone this... it simply appears to be a gap in the material available.
The idea of the BoED is interesting, however, and not just because of the aforementioned perspective. So long as it's done well, that is. Keep it flexible and open and put the emphasis on enriching options, not preaching or putting up restrictions.
I'd like to see more kinds of celestials (how many kinds of demons/devils/yugoloths are there by now?), more good creatures of a more mundane nature, and of course some guidelines as to what goodness is, but not restrictive ones. (I firmly believe in the sandbox approach to gaming; that is, give as little as possible and let people play with it.) An interesting idea might be a virtue system like old Ultima games had... you know, where you got rated in various attributes like valour, charity, mercy etc. Although what you'd use it for is an interesting question...
Now as to the person who mentioned Aztecs and Romans... we don't always think of them as evil, although they did some pretty abhorrent things. But think about it. In one thousand years, who will people remember from the 20th century? Probably Hitler. Only obscure scholars will have ever heard of Churchill or Roosevelt or whoever they were. (See, it's already starting to fade.) The Aztecs and Romans are remembered for exactly the same reasons: They conquered very very well. Of course, they're not here today. Were they evil? To some, certainly. It takes a certain mentality to put your own people above others then go out and conquer them. Just thought I'd mention it.
And as for books on Order and Chaos, those could actually be far more interesting because they have much less moral background. Law and chaos are opposites, and neither one is 'right' as you might describe Good. A good deal of fantasy literature deals with describing the struggle between gods of Chaos and Order.
Now whoever it was who said that a book of Law would be boring? I don't think so. Part of order is building things up. Mundane examples of Law include: How to put a legion together; How to build a monolithic monument akin to the Pyramids; How to write a set of laws that cover all the bases. Now I happen to think that writing my own laws would be pretty cool, especially if I had subjects to obey them. Then you go into extraplanar Law; there are some cool metaphysical concepts you could visit there. Crystal, for example, is a very lawful material in my mind; imagine an entire plane made of crystal, walking though a shining forest or fighting a crystal template lion that shatters easily but does more damage. The coolest thing about Law, however, is that the Borg are lawful (either LN or LE, it's difficult to decide). Seeing Borg-like foes in D&D could definitely be exciting.
Anyways, those are just my thoughts on the matter. I'm poor and probably won't buy anything mentioned here. I just think it's a cool idea.
FireLance
Legend
I would buy it, to show my support for the Light side. 
I would like a book that shows all facets of Good. It seems to me that many people have the idea that Good is either of the all-sacrificing, martyr variety or the militaristic, kill-you-to-save-you variety.
The CRPG Ultima IV made a decent start at showcasing the variety of Good by introducing eight Virtues: Honesty, Compassion, Valor, Justice, Honor, Sacrifice, Spirituality and Humility. The process of character creation showed how different concepts of Good can come into conflict with each other, e.g. you have captured a criminal who is looking after his sick mother. Do you bring him to Justice, or set him free out of Compassion?
Similarly, agents of Good can have many different motivations. Some are dedicated to Truth, others to Joy, Healing, Equality, Redemption, etc. They can oppose each other on occasion. And for the PCs, having to choose between the greater of two goods can be as interesting and thought-provoking as having to choose between the lesser of two evils.
I would like a book that shows all facets of Good. It seems to me that many people have the idea that Good is either of the all-sacrificing, martyr variety or the militaristic, kill-you-to-save-you variety.
The CRPG Ultima IV made a decent start at showcasing the variety of Good by introducing eight Virtues: Honesty, Compassion, Valor, Justice, Honor, Sacrifice, Spirituality and Humility. The process of character creation showed how different concepts of Good can come into conflict with each other, e.g. you have captured a criminal who is looking after his sick mother. Do you bring him to Justice, or set him free out of Compassion?
Similarly, agents of Good can have many different motivations. Some are dedicated to Truth, others to Joy, Healing, Equality, Redemption, etc. They can oppose each other on occasion. And for the PCs, having to choose between the greater of two goods can be as interesting and thought-provoking as having to choose between the lesser of two evils.
Olive
Explorer
Re: Re: Would you buy a Book of Exalted Deeds?
as would i... but it has to be remembered that the planescape books todo with the good planes sold much worse than those to do with the evil ones... or at least thats what i seem to remember monte saying at some point...
drnuncheon said:
as would i... but it has to be remembered that the planescape books todo with the good planes sold much worse than those to do with the evil ones... or at least thats what i seem to remember monte saying at some point...
Olive
Explorer
Sammael99 said:
and again i come late to the thread to see it already said...
i liked that article in dragon on why you'd fight a celestial, and i liked the dungeon adventure that stuck you in the middle of a devil and an archon (or whatever it was...)
so i'd like to see that kinda stuff.
also maybe bits about conflict in the celestial planes. i'd imagin archons and eladrin wouldn't always agree, and would soemtimes find themselves in complete oposition...
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