Would you hold it against a book if...

[tleilaxu]

i hate anime art. so the answer is yes

 

[Kaffis]

I am, generally, not a fan of anime or the manga style, whichever you prefer. Mostly as a combination of Joshua Dyal and jgbrowning's viewpoints. It's not so much that I flat out dislike the artwork (or some of it, at least... for instance, I like my people to have noses, rather than a little microscopic corner in the middle of their face, thankyouverymuch) as it is that I'm not fond of the way it is often animated (with the monstrous changes in mouth/eye size, and whatnot; and yes, I realize these types of things are usually used as comedic devices), and I associate them with a lot of very thinly plotted material.

Now, I say this as the brother of a pretty big anime fan who has tried to make me see the error of my ways and convert me with the best in his arsenal. And I've still never been impressed with the scripts.

Back to the art, I find the complete and utter lack of attention to human proportion disturbing. It's neither pleasant, nor inspires the young artist to learn such things, which locks them out of ever trying different styles in the future, which I think has probably spoiled budding talent left and right. I'm also not impressed by such small details like all the people portrayed in anime look essentially the same, with the same shaped heads, the same massive breasts, and the same oversized eyes. Character differentiation, as far as I can tell, is primarily via the exact lay of the spikey hair and the clothing, cause lord knows you couldn't tell the faces apart by themselves.

Of course, I also (and this may be the biggest strike against it) am downright sick of it! Everywhere I look, anime is being thust upon me, and there are five kajillion and one (bad) amateurs who have discovered the internet and apparently think they're the hottest thing since the toaster oven.

I'll point to Elfwood as an example. When I first discovered it back in the mid-90's, I loved just browsing through it, enjoying the diversity in style and subject. The last time I bothered looking at it was a year or two ago, and all it was anymore was anime this, anime that. So maybe I'm jaded towards the style because it's taken all of the good talent that used to divvy itself up between comic-style art, realism, etc. and funnelled it into one monotonous genre.

For the record, so nobody thinks I'm singling anything out, I'm also dead sick of lens-flared Photoshopped color art.

Oh yeah, and what's with the elves who can't walk through doors because of their horizontally growing ears?

 

[Victim]

Re: Re: Re: well

yes, but not as much as weird spellcasting people with spikey hair, huh?


anyone else wanna be pithy and insulting because they dont like my opinions?



joe b.

Sorry, I only meant to attack your arguement, not you.

I'd consider the topic of the book to see what kind of art best suits it. A sourcebook on gritty campaigns, or Dark Ages europe probably shouldn't use anime style art. On the other hand, anime art might fit campaign setting designed around the nature of high level play. I'd say that the more fantastic the material, the more appliable anime or other odd art styles would be. For example, err, the Planescape art guy's work seems to really fit Planescape. But that style probably wouldn't feel right for Conan.

It might be interesting to portray certain elements of a book in one style while other elements are drawn in different styles. An anime Fey creature standing next to a normal looking knight guy. Both could be battling a Planescape-ish demon. It might serve to highlight and differentiate the mundane and magical elements of a world. But it might also look stupid and jarring.
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Of course, I don't really care about art. I don't really think that the art in a book influences my decision to buy it. So I wouldn't really care. You could replace all the art with additional text and have a black cover with a green guy in hexagon (HERO 5 cover) and I wouldn't mind.

 

[Mercule]

Do any of you who don't like anime art enjoy any console fantasy videogames?

Yes. I've played FF 7, 8, 9 and I'm currently playing Legend of Dragoon. I've learned to enjoy the "rules" and character development (stat-wise). The art one of the down-sides, especially FF9. FF8 was okay for art, but not great. The story-lines always have some really lame parts to them, but aren't too bad overall.

I'm definitely not a fan. There provide amusing diversions despite their anime influences, though.

A LOT of the art in the recent WotC books are slightly anime-ish, even. Something like the incarnate golem from the Savage Species art preview to me just screams "Hey, that's anime in 3d!"

Yup. You'll find that I'm very much not a fan of the more recent WotC art. For the most part, I find all 3E art far to anime influenced.

I think Joe B's a bit overbiased. And so are many members of the board (of which I'm probably not excluded). But to me, style and substance are important, and whether it's rennaisence oils or medieval woodcarvings or anime spikey-hairs or whatever, as long as it looks good, I'm happy with it.

I definitely prefer Renaissance oils. I want my art to look like it _could_ be rendered from a real scene. Despite the 60" busts that Elmore and his ilk often use, the style of the art doesn't immediately jar me from the illusion the way anime does.

Even the bustiest "chick in chainmail bikini" fits the bill better than the anime I've seen. Even the proportions are more anatomically correct.

 

[seasong]

I'm also not impressed by such small details like all the people portrayed in anime look essentially the same, with the same shaped heads, the same massive breasts, and the same oversized eyes. Character differentiation, as far as I can tell, is primarily via the exact lay of the spikey hair and the clothing, cause lord knows you couldn't tell the faces apart by themselves.

It doesn't sound like your brother's "best in the arsenal" included any of the stuff I would actually have considered good: Cowboy Bebop, Blood: the Last Vampire, Lain, Noir.

Note: Bebop has the proportion problems, but at least the different characters look different. Noir is stylized, but I included it because the scripting (at least for the 3 eps I've seen) is pretty good. Bebop's scripting is excellent.

Blood's scripting is pretty mundane, but the art is, I think, where anime should head more in the future.

Lain is its own animal. I hesitate to call it anime, because it breaks so many of the conventions us westerners think of when we think of anime - damned solid writing, good research, highly realistic art, and a lot of thinking required to follow the episodes. The only reason I include it is because Boogiepop Phantom seems to be following in those footsteps.

 

[jgbrowning]

Re: Re: Re: Re: well

Originally posted by Victim
Sorry, I only meant to attack your arguement, not you.

Your right. sorry i overreacted. i blame hong.

I'd consider the topic of the book to see what kind of art best suits it. A sourcebook on gritty campaigns, or Dark Ages europe probably shouldn't use anime style art. On the other hand, anime art might fit campaign setting designed around the nature of high level play. I'd say that the more fantastic the material, the more appliable anime or other odd art styles would be. For example, err, the Planescape art guy's work seems to really fit Planescape. But that style probably wouldn't feel right for Conan.

It might be interesting to portray certain elements of a book in one style while other elements are drawn in different styles. An anime Fey creature standing next to a normal looking knight guy. Both could be battling a Planescape-ish demon. It might serve to highlight and differentiate the mundane and magical elements of a world. But it might also look stupid and jarring.

thats a good idea. i'd love to see sloppy wet watercolors for faeries. that's be cool, especially when most other things are crisp line art.

joe b.

 

[Dark Jezter]

One question though: the boy with the sword and the Japanese writing is supposed to be a child, correct? I think one of the hangups people have with anime is that lots of times people look too damn young to be as badass as they are. Any rpg with prepubescent archmages/generals/cunning diplomats/dashing burglars is going to get my personal stamp of disapproval.

"Teenagers save the world" is a very popular theme in anime, unfortunately. Luckily, there are some series that deviate from this stereotype, such as Cowboy Bebop.

Another thing you have to watch out for in anime-influenced artwork is "bishiness". For those who aren't familiar with anime slang, bishie is short for bishojo, which is Japanese for "beautiful man/boy", which basically means pretty-boy. It's common for the main male character in an anime or manga to have delicate, effeminate features, perfect hair, flawless skin, etc. I don't know about everyone else, but if I'm a villian, I'm not gonna feel very intimidated if the hero trying to stop me looks like he just walked off the set of an Old Navy Commercial.

 

[Enforcer]

Actually, due to the proportioning of the chest (lower-left side), I was under the impression that the picture was female.

Although, your post begs me to ask: How long (in "game time") do your games take to level-up into the higher (15+) levels. It seems that adventures like RttToEE are designed to level-up PCs to higher levels in a matter of weeks or months, which is why I'm not inclined to like published adventures (having campaigns that progress over the span of decades in the game-world).

(Yes, off-topic, but far more relavant to gaming than Vorlon reproductive organs...)

It'd take at least a few years for players in my games to make it to 15th. But for right now I'm playing Exalted, so there's no levelling there...

 

[Desdichado]

To play devil's advocate to my own post, in some ways, it's important to remember where the 'anime' style came from. Disney's Peter Pan is more 'anime'-like than some of the examples I've seen tossed out here, and not only is it patently not Japanese, but it predates anime by several decades. A lot of these styles are really kinda a mish-mash: Disney, anime and comic-book style art, for example, have a lot of overlap. Comic books were teaching not realistic but 'heroic' proportions and poses long before anime distorted the human figure.

That said, my favorite fantasy artwork would be a sort of Frank Frazetta style, except without all the loincloth barbarians and nearly nekkid chicks.

 

[RangerWickett]

One question though: the boy with the sword and the Japanese writing is supposed to be a child, correct? I think one of the hangups people have with anime is that lots of times people look too damn young to be as badass as they are. Any rpg with prepubescent archmages/generals/cunning diplomats/dashing burglars is going to get my personal stamp of disapproval.

Um, for once, the person who looks like a chick actually is a chick. I know that usually in anime, a lot of guys look like women, but the woman with the sword (she's apparently naked, too) is indeed a woman.