Would you play D&D if the sacred cows were sacrificed?

[Deekin]

Did they cook the fattened Hellcow?

I'd want to see the system before I made up my mind.

 

[WayneLigon]

The designers of 3E have explicity stated that they expected the PCs to have a certain amount of gear to be up to snuff when dealing with CRs of their own level. There is no such statement about 1st edition.

They didn't expect you to have X GP worth of stuff, but Stuff certainly was expected and accounted for: many, many creatures you meet after, oh, sixth-seventh level or so require you to have a magic weapon of a certain 'plus' to be able to even damage them. You could say it's a de facto expectation that after X level you were expected to have a weapon of N plus.

 

[francisca]

Would hate it, as it wouldn't be D&D anymore. Might as well just play RQ at that point.

 

[billd91]

They didn't expect you to have X GP worth of stuff, but Stuff certainly was expected and accounted for: many, many creatures you meet after, oh, sixth-seventh level or so require you to have a magic weapon of a certain 'plus' to be able to even damage them. You could say it's a de facto expectation that after X level you were expected to have a weapon of N plus.

Which I have already mentioned above when I first brought it up. But other than a magic weapon, what else? Nothing, certainly no explicity built-in assumption of an expected level of gear owned by the character like you find in 3E/3.5.

And I'd also add that many of the creatures that required magical weapons to hit in 1st edition, didn't require weapons all that strong. You'll be hard pressed to find a creature needing greater than +3, and many of the demons and devils could be tagged with just iron or silver. 2nd edition did generally raise some of the pluses as they revised the demons to make them tougher.

 

[Melan]

The assignment of the term "sacred cow" carries the assessment that the thing to be "sacrificed" is uneccessary, undesirable, or outdated.

I don't share the self-loathing and guilt that somehow empowered the notion that in any way are many of the things that are being labeled "sacred cows" are in any way outmoded gaming based on a minority view of the hobby. Indeed, many of these supposed "holdbacks" have been proven to be sorely missed aspects by those who have played other systems (frex, I hear how lack of hp, which is a "sacred cow" per the OP/poll, is a big stumbling block for people's enjoyment of playing True20.)

Most definitely - I am in complete agreement. Whether they were consciously designed to be that way by Gygax & Co or just made up in a drunken stupor at 3 AM cca. 1972, hit points, Vancian magic, classes, levels, saving throws and a lot of the other "sacred cows" work very well in a game. Although there is always room for mechanical improvement (as demonstrated by 3e, flaws and all), some concepts just work. They aren't obsolote junk, they are time-proven examples of good game design.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

If ye be lettin' tharrr sacred sea monstarrrs walk the plank, ye be playin Dungeons and Dragons only in name, lubber.

It's like bein' a pirate, matey, but not slittin' anyone's throats, not keelhaulin' anyone, not lettin any lubber walk the plank, not lootin' and pillagin', not hoisin' the Jolly Roger, nevarrr gon' to the sea, and nevarrr' fighin' them ninjas. Then you call yourself pirate, but you be really a landlubber!

 

[JoeGKushner]

Not that I agree that D&D does real sword and sorcery well, but to be fair, the start of the first book may be the beginning of the story, but it is by no means the beginning of Elric's career. He is already mid to high level (in D&D terms) when the story begins.

Which is another thing that D&D doesn't default to very well. there is a built in assumption that people will be starting at low levels and advancing as they continue their careers. Which is another reason why D&D doesn't model classic fantasy well.

In many fantasy books, the characters reach a certain level of competency and then begin losing their abilities. I don't remember if it was the pastiche novels but King Conan was an old man who wasn't quite up there with the young reaver he used to be.

D&D also doesn't handle the whole 'uncontrolable' aspect we so often see associated with sorcerery.

It's designed to be a game.

 

[Diremede]

Any book that has three core books each some odd 300+ pages is hardly what I would consider simple.

Any book that has a monthly FAQ session in it's official magazine is hardly what I'd call clear.

Any book that has a class so complicated that they have to make a stupidifed version of it (sorcerer vs wizard), is not easy to learn.

Just my opinion mind you.

Okay the game isn't exactly a board game like Hero Quest, learn in 5 minutes and your on your way, but to PLAY the game you really only need 1 book and it is fairly simple to learn unless you have the IQ of Forest Gump, (but I have played this game with extreme idiots and find that they pan out just fine). to DM you need 3. I mean you can digest the basics of the game by just reading the examples in each of the sections, and really basics are all that you need.

As for the monthly FAQ, well I don't subscribe to their magazine and couldn't tell you what questions are raised or answered in the FAQ as I am sure they are asked by people who can't just make a decision on a rule and stick with it so they go to something they think is "official". Truly I don't care about the FAQ, unless its in the book or a house rule its not part of my games and thats a FAQ, and I have very few house rules.

I'm not real sure how anyone thinks the wizard or the sorcerer is too hard or too complicated. If your a wizard you cast spells. You have a spell book. You memorize X amount of spells per day and then cast them. The next day you do the same thing. Don't know, but that is pretty simple to me.

There is not a single class in the book that a 12 year old with the appropriate reading level can't understand or figure out, so yeah I'm going to have to stick to simple and easy to learn.

 

[JohnSnow]

Short answer: D&D without the sacred cows isn't D&D.

Long version: Very few of the things in D&D truly are "sacred cows."

So, the question is, what are the sacred cows? Offhand, I'd go with only the following:

- d20 for task resolution
- dice rolls for damage
- hit points for tracking damage
- saving throws for avoiding "bad stuff"
- 6 ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha)
- Classes & Levels that determine combat effectiveness and other special abilities.
- humans, dwarves, halflings and elves as core races (there may be others, but these 4 will always be there)

That's it. I don't think specific classes, arcane/divine magic, spell slots, AC, or anything else is a true "sacred cow." While the concept of "Saving Throws" is, the specific ones are not. The skill and feat systems certainly aren't. IMO, D&D will never have skill-based attack bonuses, or do away with hit points, dump the d20, or go classless or level-less. It just wouldn't BE D&D.

I could see Defense replacing AC, armor as DR, a different magic system, different classes, revisions to the skill or feat system, et cetera. I imagine there will always be some form of "magic-user" class, a "fighting man" class, and a "thief-like" class. I imagine BAB will stay and stay a class feature, as it's a very elegant way of handling "to hit" rolls.

Beyond that, I wouldn't dare speculate.

And as long as it held the above cows, I'd still play it. Which is why I still think of my Iron Heroes games as "D&D." It shares all those cows.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

To be D&D, the game must have classes and it must have levels. There may be other sacred cows I'd insist on keeping, but those are the two that spring to mind. While it would be tricky, I think you could still make it D&D without hit points or the current AC system.

I'm not saying you couldn't have a perfectly good fantasy RPG without classes and levels. It just wouldn't be D&D.

Heh, the very thought that I had upon seeing the title of this thread. Much like the proposed 4th edition RuneQuest by Avalon Hill was not going to be RuneQuest, just some game that happened to have the same title.

The Auld Grump