Would you quit a game if....

[prosfilaes]

What about when you've got 4 HP left and the undead creature rolls a critical on you, knocking you down to -12?

Not dead yet?

I think that's missing my point. If the social contract you're playing under says that characters won't die except in dramatic suicides or heroic sacrifices, then the DM shouldn't put them in situations where that's a problem. Undead aren't completely out of the question--skeletons may be controlled by intelligent creatures or just ignore creatures they knock unconscious, etc.--but ravenous undead like wraiths are certainly something a DM should think carefully about. HP is irrelevant; with this social contract, HP damage simply can't kill PCs.

This is nothing new; 1st level characters in any game don't run into ancient red dragons, with rare exceptions, because it's not in most social contracts for characters to be suddenly annihilated by enemies out of their league, no matter how realistically possible that is. You tailor the fights in a game to what you and the players would enjoy.

Again, I'm not arguing that you should do this, or that this is a normal thing to do with D&D. I'm simply arguing that it can be done, and not only be fun, but be tense and dramatic, that even in a serious game, you can take death off the table and leave important stakes on the table.

 

[Water Bob]

I think that's missing my point.

And, I think you're missing mine, which is: What's the point of combat if you can't die?

So, the GM tailors the campaign so that there's action to keep the players interested and rolling dice, but he always ensures it's never too much for the PCs. If he's got 10 baddies going against the PCs, and he sees the PCs aren't doing well, he scales back the oncoming 10 baddies to 3. He skips morale checks and automatically makes baddies retreat when necessary. He never stresses the PCs too much--just allows them to swing and tear the enemy up. He showers them with goodies and potections.

What I'm saying is that, still, there's a chance that the goblin gets lucky against the 5th level fighter, rolls a critical, and knocks the guy down into the negative hit points, making him dead, dead, dead.

There's always some risk in combat.

I guess this GM could roll his attack throws behind the screen so that, when he does hit with a creature against a PC that is vulnrable, he could flub it can call it a miss.

I guess he could do the same with damage--no matter what, the goblin rolled, it delivers only 1 HP of damage, keeping the PC alive.

 

[billd91]

And, I think you're missing mine, which is: What's the point of combat if you can't die?

Same thing with every action movie or action sequence in a book with characters that have plot immunity - to tell an action story. Or, I suppose more accurately, let an action story unfold from the initial situation.

What I'm saying is that, still, there's a chance that the goblin gets lucky against the 5th level fighter, rolls a critical, and knocks the guy down into the negative hit points, making him dead, dead, dead.

There's always some risk in combat.

I guess this GM could roll his attack throws behind the screen so that, when he does hit with a creature against a PC that is vulnrable, he could flub it can call it a miss.

I guess he could do the same with damage--no matter what, the goblin rolled, it delivers only 1 HP of damage, keeping the PC alive.

Or the PC taken down is unconscious and stays that way until directly intervened with or the combat ends. That poor luck in combat can still have complications associated with them like recovery time or slowed travel. If the whole party gets defeated, capture becomes a major complication. In effect, you're really just getting rid of one of the more common complications - death. Any others can stick around.

Just because the PCs can't die in game like this doesn't mean you can't knock them around or have to fudge to keep them conscious. The superhero genre is famous for this as is, frankly, plenty of other fiction that inspired D&D in the first place.

 

[Janx]

What about when you've got 4 HP left and the undead creature rolls a critical on you, knocking you down to -12?

Not dead yet?

The point I see about Death isn't whether the DM pulls some punches, etc.

At some point, a PC does something that can't be padded, protected, faded to black that MUST by all logic yield a dead PC.

Jumping into a volcano to ensure the Second One Ring is destroyed.

Having one's head chopped off by the mob outside who have overthrown your corrupt rule.

Having a 50 ton block of stone triggered by a trap crush your body.

Here's a simple one for 7th Seas: Falling off the boat into shark infested waters when you don't know how to swim during a battle so nobody notices or has time to save you.

YES, a DM could try to wrangle the PC out of one of those. But what if the PC fails even that opportunity? What if it just doesn't seem appropriate to pull another Deus Ex out of your arse? What if dying this tiime just seems right? What if the PC deserves it?

Even a game with rules to help protect a PC from dying, must still have the possibilitiy of death. If only to reflect the reality that though awesome the PC may be, he is still actually mortal and if his buddy PC turns and stabs him to death, he will actually die. Otherwise, the PCs are playing immortals, and not people, and that's a different RPG. I think it's called Highlander. But wait, they can die in that too...

 

[Mallus]

And, I think you're missing mine, which is: What's the point of combat if you can't die?

I can offer some perspective on this.

I'm currently playing in a mid-to-high (13) level Pathfinder campaign that's, umm, death-lite. Instead of dying, each time a PC would die, they get "knocked out" and acquire a non-removable negative level which lasts until they go up in level.

The point of our combats are to stop our foes from doing whatever it is their doing that we don't like (we're in a heavily modified version of the Kingmaker AP). We can still lose, which for us usually means retreat via magic, and our opponents get to keep wrecking havoc/furthering their agenda.

Combat is still exciting. "Death", our, rather, our low-calorie death-flavored substitute still carries penalties (sitting out of the remainder of the fight and a negative level), and is something to be vigorously avoided.

Combat has a "point" if there is something at stake. So long as there is more at stake than mere personal survival, then death-lite battles can be meaningful and interesting.

 

[Elf Witch]

What about when you've got 4 HP left and the undead creature rolls a critical on you, knocking you down to -12?

Not dead yet?

I played in a game that took death out and put in another consequence. If you got knocked to -11 you lost a level. You started back at the very beginning of the level . So if you were close to leveling it really hurt.

Let me tell you nobody wanted that to happen so combat held just as many fears as if we could have died.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea and that's fine. But I found it one of the best campaigns I ever played in.

 

[Elf Witch]

And, I think you're missing mine, which is: What's the point of combat if you can't die?

So, the GM tailors the campaign so that there's action to keep the players interested and rolling dice, but he always ensures it's never too much for the PCs. If he's got 10 baddies going against the PCs, and he sees the PCs aren't doing well, he scales back the oncoming 10 baddies to 3. He skips morale checks and automatically makes baddies retreat when necessary. He never stresses the PCs too much--just allows them to swing and tear the enemy up. He showers them with goodies and potections.

What I'm saying is that, still, there's a chance that the goblin gets lucky against the 5th level fighter, rolls a critical, and knocks the guy down into the negative hit points, making him dead, dead, dead.

There's always some risk in combat.

I guess this GM could roll his attack throws behind the screen so that, when he does hit with a creature against a PC that is vulnrable, he could flub it can call it a miss.

I guess he could do the same with damage--no matter what, the goblin rolled, it delivers only 1 HP of damage, keeping the PC alive.

Or he could put other consequences in the game like the example I gave above. Another way to handle it is to allow death but allow instant raise dead with a maybe a geas to perform a service for the god.

In my campaign every player starts with a get out of death free card. If they use it I say that they had an outer body experience and were called back to their body to finish their mission.

I get that this is not your style and that is cool but there are ways to take death out of the game and still make combat challenging and fun.

 

[Elf Witch]

The point I see about Death isn't whether the DM pulls some punches, etc.

At some point, a PC does something that can't be padded, protected, faded to black that MUST by all logic yield a dead PC.

Jumping into a volcano to ensure the Second One Ring is destroyed.

Having one's head chopped off by the mob outside who have overthrown your corrupt rule.

Having a 50 ton block of stone triggered by a trap crush your body.

Here's a simple one for 7th Seas: Falling off the boat into shark infested waters when you don't know how to swim during a battle so nobody notices or has time to save you.

YES, a DM could try to wrangle the PC out of one of those. But what if the PC fails even that opportunity? What if it just doesn't seem appropriate to pull another Deus Ex out of your arse? What if dying this tiime just seems right? What if the PC deserves it?

Even a game with rules to help protect a PC from dying, must still have the possibilitiy of death. If only to reflect the reality that though awesome the PC may be, he is still actually mortal and if his buddy PC turns and stabs him to death, he will actually die. Otherwise, the PCs are playing immortals, and not people, and that's a different RPG. I think it's called Highlander. But wait, they can die in that too...

A death free campaign usually does not mean doing something stupid is rewarded. Jumping into lava will get you killed.

Your 7 Seas example is easy. People have survived in the water for days long enough to be rescued. If there is a battle there maybe something to hang onto. A mermaid comes to you aid. A creative DM can come up with a plausible reason not to die.

Action adventure is full of weird tales of survival look at Indiana Jones he lived through being tossed into the ocean without a life jacket in a middle of bad storm. He hung onto the periscope of a U boat for miles. He lived through a nuclear blast in a fridge.

In Highlander immortals can lose their heads but Duncan McCloud did not lose his he was the hero because he had plot protection.

Again this is all a matter of taste you may not like it and that is fine but your way is not the one true way to play.

 

[Water Bob]

Instead of dying, each time a PC would die, they get "knocked out" and acquire a non-removable negative level which lasts until they go up in level.

The point of our combats are to stop our foes from doing whatever it is their doing that we don't like (we're in a heavily modified version of the Kingmaker AP). We can still lose, which for us usually means retreat via magic, and our opponents get to keep wrecking havoc/furthering their agenda.

Combat is still exciting. "Death", our, rather, our low-calorie death-flavored substitute still carries penalties (sitting out of the remainder of the fight and a negative level), and is something to be vigorously avoided.

Personally, I think no death in D&D is like giving all the kids on all the Little League teams trophies and calling them winners, no matter which single team won the championship.

There's no way that "no death but penalties" carries the same weight as when your character, who've you've grown to love, is low on hit points and face-to-face with some horror that is about to take the character out of existence. There's no way that only losing a level or becoming unconscious or (instert death repalcing penalty) can provide the same thrill as coming very, very close to death, and never playing your favorite character again, but somehow pulling it off, allowing the character to live and continue in the game world.

The victory is so much sweeter because the consequence was grave (pun intended).

I think it was expressed best up thread by another poster: When we watch/read James Bond, Indianna Jones, and Conan, WE know that the character will not die and has plot immunity, but the character doesn't know that! When reading/watching, THAT'S what we buy into--the peril from the character's point of view.

A roleplaying game is not played from the audience's point of view. It's played from the character's point of view. We're not telling a story as if it has already happened. In RPG's, we're living the story AS it happens.

Therefore, death should certainly be a possibility.

 

[prosfilaes]

And, I think you're missing mine, which is: What's the point of combat if you can't die?

So, the GM tailors the campaign so that there's action to keep the players interested and rolling dice, but he always ensures it's never too much for the PCs. If he's got 10 baddies going against the PCs, and he sees the PCs aren't doing well, he scales back the oncoming 10 baddies to 3.

In the type of campaign I was thinking of, that's exactly the reverse of what you do. You no longer have to worry about a TPK; it gives you an excuse to do awful hideous things to them and everything they love or care about without spelling an end to the game.

What I'm saying is that, still, there's a chance that the goblin gets lucky against the 5th level fighter, rolls a critical, and knocks the guy down into the negative hit points, making him dead, dead, dead.

Only if you insist that negative hit points means dead, dead, dead.