Wound / vitality system pros

[ogre]

I recently finshed a long round of playtesting with a PA game I have been working on, and am now questioning the whole 'hit point' system. It seems to work fine for D&D, but the high-level (10+) battles just seemed to lack excitement, when using high-tech energy weapons and mutant energy blasts, and I'm thinking a Wound / Vitality system would be better. A system that basically doesn't have high level PCs being able to withstand more damage before death, though they should be able to avoid it better or 'fight through' their pain better, but the physical damage aspect doesn't change much with level advancement. So, my questions to you all are:
1) Is there an open source system I can use for D20 modern? (Star wars?)
2) Do most of you agree that when using energy weapons and powerd armor (for instance), the game works better with a W/V system? It just seems odd for PCs to have more hit points than a Large mecha for instance. (yes, I am very well aware of the abstract concept of hit points, its just this type of game is stetching my feasability)
3) Could I be better off incorporatring one of the grim and gritty rules varients out there and keeping hit points? (assuming they use them) Are any of them open source?

Some of the pertinent info about my PA game as it relates to these questions:
I use the Class Defense bonuses, Armor provides both a Defense bonus (lower than normal, +1- +4 average) and DR. High tech weapons do both more damage and have a Penetration score, which negates hardness or armor DR.

Any opinions are welcome.

 

[Dav]

1) Is there an open source system I can use for D20 modern? (Star wars?)

http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm There's a VP/WP system for you there, from the SRD'd "Unearthed Arcana."

 

[ogre]

Dav,
Thanks for the link.
It looks pretty good, but has anyone tried it with modern/futuristic combat?
I guess that's the idea behind the massive damage rules in d20 modern, which seem to be either non-important or too deadly, at least that's how it played out in the playtest.

 

[Skywalker]

This is one of the most common rules mods in d20 and there are a lot of opinions about how to make it work.

I think you need to begin by deciding some base questions:

1. How close to D&D HP system do you want to be?
2. Do you want Armour to be a DR or AC bonus?
3. How much class based defence bonus do you want?

I think the best systems out there are Star Wars RCR, True 20 and A Game of Thrones.

Star Wars uses VP and WP. It produces some strange effects at higher levels but the idea is nice, especially if you clearly understand VP covers everything beyond serious wounds.

AGOT uses HP but has a massive damage save based on half Con. There are many variations of this MD save from Black Company to Conan. I personally prefer MD saves to arise on critical hits or on HP based on the victim's Con.

True 20 is the purest deconstruction of D20. It equates Attack with Defence and Damage with Toughness. It results in a lot of nice symmetry such as Weapons and Armour being directly comparable. I also like how it distinguishes between skill (in Defence), toughness (in Toughness) and heroism/drama (in Conviction), where HP aggregates these three concepts. It makes it very simple to narrate and understand what is happening.

 

[arscott]

Dav,
Thanks for the link.
It looks pretty good, but has anyone tried it with modern/futuristic combat?
I guess that's the idea behind the massive damage rules in d20 modern, which seem to be either non-important or too deadly, at least that's how it played out in the playtest.

In my experience, that better describes V/WPs than it does MDTs. In general:

Wound points are actually deadlier. When you take wound damage equal to your con (and this can happen pretty often, at least in Star Wars), then you die. If you fail your massive damage save, you're merely reduced to -1 hp.

Massive Damage tends to be less random than wound points--You deal wound damage only if you roll a 20. You can trigger a massive damage save by scoring a crit, by using burst fire, by power attacking, or by using a powerful grenade--it's more about the character's ability to be deadly than it is about the player's luck.

Because Vitality points heal by the hour, there's a lot less for a healer to do. Of course, that means that the game doesn't rely on the party having a healer, either.

 

[Turanil]

I prefer the True20 system where hit-points are concerned. I believe this system was somewhat released as OGC in the Unearthed Arcana book.

 

[genshou]

My first d20 Modern game ever was a Starship Troopers meets Trigun meets Blue Gender game on Mars, right after d20 Modern was released. I used vitality/wounds and found that it made the game a lot grittier but also more cinematic. Characters learn to rely on armour to stay alive, and there's always the chance that one lucky hit could really do you in. The part about faster healing rate is a definite advantage as well, especially in a military game where PCs can't just rest up for several days when they didn't get any "real" injuries.

The system in Unearthed Arcana (also on the d20srd.org website someone else linked to above) is just an OGL version of the one from the Star Wars d20 Revised Core Rulebook, and it works great as long as you don't introduce Jedi with lightsabers.

 

[Aussiegamer]

This is one of the most common rules mods in d20 and there are a lot of opinions about how to make it work.

I think you need to begin by deciding some base questions:

1. How close to D&D HP system do you want to be?

Nexus uses straight HP as per most d20 games but has some variantion to the mass damage as discussed below. In my opinion the tracking of VP and WP can be confusing for some.

2. Do you want Armour to be a DR or AC bonus?

Why have just one? - in Nexus you have AC and DR for the various types of armour, from light leather to Heavy Pallidium. If it deflects it then no damage, and if it hits then the armour reduces the damage.

3. How much class based defence bonus do you want?

I found this to be a way of allowing PCs to live longer in the modern/ future game but at the high end made them almost impossible to hit. Also was a replacement it seems to me for the lack of magic.

I think the best systems out there are Star Wars RCR, True 20 and A Game of Thrones.

Star Wars uses VP and WP. It produces some strange effects at higher levels but the idea is nice, especially if you clearly understand VP covers everything beyond serious wounds.

AGOT uses HP but has a massive damage save based on half Con. There are many variations of this MD save from Black Company to Conan. I personally prefer MD saves to arise on critical hits or on HP based on the victim's Con.

True 20 is the purest deconstruction of D20. It equates Attack with Defence and Damage with Toughness. It results in a lot of nice symmetry such as Weapons and Armour being directly comparable. I also like how it distinguishes between skill (in Defence), toughness (in Toughness) and heroism/drama (in Conviction), where HP aggregates these three concepts. It makes it very simple to narrate and understand what is happening.

As with all systems each has their own take on it. And with everything it comes down to personal preference to the final system you use.

Nexus uses an increasing damage system, that is based on the creature's Con score, thus a tougher creature has a better chance of not facing the increased damage to their body.

Three levels of damage comparing the single attack damage to the CBT (Combat Damage Threashold) score.

Nexus uses a skill based system for weapon and armour uses that allows for a more in depth use of the gear. Though being still the d20 attack roll vs the targets AC. But with 15 body points then the damage varies and allows for a limb to be damaged or blown off.

This means the role playing can allow for the regrowth or cybering up of the missing limb.

 

[Skywalker]

Why have just one? - in Nexus you have AC and DR for the various types of armour, from light leather to Heavy Pallidium. If it deflects it then no damage, and if it hits then the armour reduces the damage.

Good point. Personally, I find the split confusing (much as you would find WP/VP confusing).

However, my main issue would be that this seems to be a compromise and that it sort of muddles mechanics. I like True 20 approach where Attack is directly opposed by Defence (both determines by skill) and Damage is opposed by Toughness (both determined by Weapons and Armour). The result is a transparent system with rules effects that are easily narrated. In True 20 you can compare a Weapon to a piece of Armour directly, as well as the skill of two opponents.

Having the effect of Armour split has all kinds of interesting side effects elsewhere. First you need to have Defence progressions run behind Attack, destroying direct comparisons. Next you have to have increasing HP which results in the well known oddities of that system. I don't think I have personally seen a split Armour system in which the designers have really taken the full consequences of the decision through the whole system.

I found this to be a way of allowing PCs to live longer in the modern/ future game but at the high end made them almost impossible to hit. Also was a replacement it seems to me for the lack of magic.

True. The four mechanics of Attack, Defence, Damage and Toughness/HP are all interlinked. If you increase Defence then the need for escalating HP decreases. On saying that a Defence progression that matches Attack, something only done so far in True 20, still sees comparably skilled characters hit each other 55% of the time which is high. It can mean that mooks have little show, but this is consistent with adventurous style play like that of Star Wars or Lord of the Rings.

As with all systems each has their own take on it. And with everything it comes down to personal preference to the final system you use.

I absolutely agree. The D20 system is incredibly flexible. I have found that it tends to marred with tinkering where there is a lack of understanding of the entire system. However, you can make a variety of satisfactory systems as the industry has shown.

 

[Skywalker]

I prefer the True20 system where hit-points are concerned. I believe this system was somewhat released as OGC in the Unearthed Arcana book.

That is true, though the UA system didn't quite capture the Toughness Save system from M&M properly. The Toughness system works best with a Conviction Point mechanic and also needs to be carefully balanced in regard to damage.