Wound / vitality system pros

[Aussiegamer]

Good point. Personally, I find the split confusing (much as you would find WP/VP confusing).

??? You have an AC and you roll to hit, if you hit then you remove any DR that body point has from the attack. Not that hard. They do this basically in all games even D&D with creatures with a DR like Barbarians class.

However, my main issue would be that this seems to be a compromise and that it sort of muddles mechanics. I like True 20 approach where Attack is directly opposed by Defence (both determines by skill) and Damage is opposed by Toughness (both determined by Weapons and Armour). The result is a transparent system with rules effects that are easily narrated. In True 20 you can compare a Weapon to a piece of Armour directly, as well as the skill of two opponents.

In all games there is a compromise. A bullet might deflect off the armour before doing any real damage, thats why the slope a tanks armour. They found that it takes more punch to get through the same amount of steel during WW2.
So removing the deflection is a compromise for that system to work.

Any way I can see a deep discussion about this is better than that so lets let it go by saying we are both right.

Having the effect of Armour split has all kinds of interesting side effects elsewhere. First you need to have Defence progressions run behind Attack, destroying direct comparisons. Next you have to have increasing HP which results in the well known oddities of that system. I don't think I have personally seen a split Armour system in which the designers have really taken the full consequences of the decision through the whole system.

HP is not that big a deal. Just means you are better at staying alive, thats all. So what a 20th player has more HP than a tank, but they will not have the same DR as that tank or have the same big bad gun.

You put in place a good high damage system in behind it and you remove that ability to stand in the middle of the road and be shot several times. d20modern started but has IMHO come up short by having the only point a CON +3 save or drop to -1hp only. You can use the loss of abilities to hamper the players, as Nexus does.

Nexus I hope has taken into account the full system look, as I looked at the UA version of direct AC to DR and it works for past style game without guns but is not good for modern+ campaigns.

 

[Skywalker]

??? You have an AC and you roll to hit, if you hit then you remove any DR that body point has from the attack. Not that hard. They do this basically in all games even D&D with creatures with a DR like Barbarians class.

I wouldn't find the application of the rules confusing

It can be difficult to understand what the split means and where armour should provide a bonus to AC and where it should provide a DR.

Any way I can see a deep discussion about this is better than that so lets let it go by saying we are both right.

FWIW I am not saying that you are wrong. As I noted, there are a number of solutions to this problem that work well. My post was simply to raise the need to understand your design goal and the mechanics of D20 to implement this.

HP is not that big a deal. Just means you are better at staying alive, thats all. So what a 20th player has more HP than a tank, but they will not have the same DR as that tank or have the same big bad gun.

I have no big issue with HP. It is one part of the whole system and a nice abstraction of a number of concepts making it easy to use in play. When you change the system around HP, it is important to understand what the impact will be as it can often be unexpected.

 

[Aussiegamer]

I wouldn't find the application of the rules confusing

It can be difficult to understand what the split means and where armour should provide a bonus to AC and where it should provide a DR.

The first part of the attack uses the targets AC, using cover bonuses as applicable etc. And if that AC number is matched or bettered then a hit occurs. At that point damage is applied minus the armour DR, creature's DR, covers DR.

So you get the AC and DR for each attack.

FWIW I am not saying that you are wrong. As I noted, there are a number of solutions to this problem that work well. My post was simply to raise the need to understand your design goal and the mechanics of D20 to implement this.

yep

I have no big issue with HP. It is one part of the whole system and a nice abstraction of a number of concepts making it easy to use in play. When you change the system around HP, it is important to understand what the impact will be as it can often be unexpected.

Yes thats true, as is just pulling out the HP and going to a WP/ VP system. It will alter tha games mechanics and will need work by the GM, as all the creatures will need changing as well. I had that problem and I am slowly working through the SRD lists and converting them to Nexus myself.

 

[Skywalker]

The first part of the attack uses the targets AC, using cover bonuses as applicable etc. And if that AC number is matched or bettered then a hit occurs. At that point damage is applied minus the armour DR, creature's DR, covers DR.

I think you are missing my point. I understand how AC and DR work.

My issue is that the concepts become muddled mechanically. I will try and explain.

I have had difficulty in the past explaining to players why some armour gets a AC bonus and some gets a DR. This is highlighted in SW RCR where some races get a AC bonus for natural armour and a DR from worn armour. Why is there a mechanical distinction?

As such, you should either have a transparent explanation (the one you made regarding deflection and protection is a start) but it still isn't readily to apparent as to why the stats are chosen. So, as a default having the bonus in one place makes the concepts simpler to understand.

In addition, the UA system (and D&D to an extent) causes me issues as it means that armour gives a bonus to AC between 1 and 4 and a DR between 1 and 4. It is very hard to give any immediate comparison to the quality of armour except whether it is good and bad in comparison to other armour. In comparison in True 20, you can see that Armour of +3 is roughly equivalent in opposition to a Weapon of +3 damage. In A Game of Thrones, armour's DR is easily comparable to rolled weapon damage to give an immediate understanding of how effective it will be.

I am not attacking the split per se, but I do think that it makes the job of explaining the impact of armour harder.

Yes thats true, as is just pulling out the HP and going to a WP/ VP system. It will alter tha games mechanics and will need work by the GM, as all the creatures will need changing as well. I had that problem and I am slowly working through the SRD lists and converting them to Nexus myself.

Agree. Star Wars OCR is a great example of how to get WP/VP wrong. SW RCR did a much better job moving to armour with DR but there are still a number of mechanical issues I would like to see done to improve that implementation of WP/VP.

 

[Bavix]

Taking Hostages

The hit point system has always bothered me for a number of reasons but the worst is the impossible task of taking a hostage and actually making any player that knows the rules take it seriously.

It just can't happen within the rules. One issue is the way that actions are resolved and the biggest reason is the hp system. At least with a WP/VP system the glut of hps even a mid-level character has can be ignored in such a situation and perhaps make taking a hostage a tense roleplaying moment and not just a laughable inconvenience.

 

[Aussiegamer]

I think you are missing my point. I understand how AC and DR work.

My issue is that the concepts become muddled mechanically. I will try and explain

.

I'm glad as I did not see what you meant.

I have had difficulty in the past explaining to players why some armour gets a AC bonus and some gets a DR. This is highlighted in SW RCR where some races get a AC bonus for natural armour and a DR from worn armour. Why is there a mechanical distinction?

I agree and thats why all armour has both in Nexus, so even antural armour has AC and DR, stepping up at 1 dr then 1 ac then 1 dr etc, stacking.

As such, you should either have a transparent explanation (the one you made regarding deflection and protection is a start) but it still isn't readily to apparent as to why the stats are chosen. So, as a default having the bonus in one place makes the concepts simpler to understand.

Yes
I still have deflection AC, but unless its in the form of a shield (energy type not physical) which can have both again.

In addition, the UA system (and D&D to an extent) causes me issues as it means that armour gives a bonus to AC between 1 and 4 and a DR between 1 and 4. It is very hard to give any immediate comparison to the quality of armour except whether it is good and bad in comparison to other armour. In comparison in True 20, you can see that Armour of +3 is roughly equivalent in opposition to a Weapon of +3 damage. In A Game of Thrones, armour's DR is easily comparable to rolled weapon damage to give an immediate understanding of how effective it will be.

Yep again, with Nexus's AC being quite limited from +1 to I think +6, and DR being from 1 to well pretty high DR's. AC does not stack but DR does.

The comparison is in two fields for Nexus, the weapons to hit modifiers and its damage with any DR bypassing ability.

Typically in Nexus the light armour is good DR wise for light weapons and grading up as the weapons get bigger to the heavy type for bigger personal weapons.

I am not attacking the split per se, but I do think that it makes the job of explaining the impact of armour harder.

Hum.. I don't see that. It is easy to see that a DR 20 AC +1 vest is better than a AC+1 DR 10 vest. Again just using the direct comparision is a bit of a slippery slope as there will be differences between weapon damage and armours DR. One might be higher than the other.

Just so you know Nexus does have a higher DR than most other systems, but you can be still knocked prone and stunned with the armour taking the damage. Also soft armour types allow the transfer of 1/2 damage as non-lethal to the creature.

The armours AC and DR split allows for more variation of armours as well. You can have better made light material that allows a better DR than the stock stuff, sure it costs more.

Agree. Star Wars OCR is a great example of how to get WP/VP wrong. SW RCR did a much better job moving to armour with DR but there are still a number of mechanical issues I would like to see done to improve that implementation of WP/VP.

I have not really read much SW, with all my conversions coming from the modern/ future base for armours. I beleive that SW is pretty similiar, but I could be wrong.

 

[Skywalker]

I agree and thats why all armour has both in Nexus, so even antural armour has AC and DR, stepping up at 1 dr then 1 ac then 1 dr etc, stacking.

It sounds like Nexus has a well thought AC/DR split

I have not really read much SW, with all my conversions coming from the modern/ future base for armours. I beleive that SW is pretty similiar, but I could be wrong.

The two versions of SW have quite different takes on the matter. SW OCR was bad IMO with armour only adding to defence and you had to choose between the higher of Classl based Defence and Armour based Defence. This created the weird sitaution when armour could actually be of no effect. SW RCR made a vast improvement on this by making Armour a DR.

In any case, there are lots of takes on this issue out there. I recommend reading a bunch of them to get a good feel for the possibilities. I think the best versions I have seen are as mentioned True 20 and A Game of Thrones, though Conan and Babylon 5 are also quite good.

 

[Aussiegamer]

It sounds like Nexus has a well thought AC/DR split

cheers I did try for the middle ground, as games seemed to only have one or the other as the main part.

The two versions of SW have quite different takes on the matter. SW OCR was bad IMO with armour only adding to defence and you had to choose between the higher of Classl based Defence and Armour based Defence. This created the weird sitaution when armour could actually be of no effect. SW RCR made a vast improvement on this by making Armour a DR.

In any case, there are lots of takes on this issue out there. I recommend reading a bunch of them to get a good feel for the possibilities. I think the best versions I have seen are as mentioned True 20 and A Game of Thrones, though Conan and Babylon 5 are also quite good.

If there is an SRD I can get then I will but I am not up for spending my hard earns on a book I don't intent to use.

I have been able to read some other systems that friends have, and it seems I have hit the middle of the road quite well.

Game well and prosper!

 

[danzig138]

1) Is there an open source system I can use for D20 modern? (Star wars?)

Yes. Someone posted the link, plus it's in Unearthed Arcana.

2) Do most of you agree that when using energy weapons and powerd armor (for instance), the game works better with a W/V system? It just seems odd for PCs to have more hit points than a Large mecha for instance. (yes, I am very well aware of the abstract concept of hit points, its just this type of game is stetching my feasability)

I don't agree. Massive Damage works fine, with some tweaking of the numbers. I use armor as DR or DC, and few characters IMG will ever have as many hit points as a Large mech - I give meches and other vehicles more hit points than standard.

 

[ogre]

Great discussion so far, thanks. (I'm not much of a chatter as you can see, but I do read ;-)
Couple new questions.
Is Nexus an open content rules system? I will definitely check it out if it is.
What about True20? I have seen it mentioned quite a bit, but don't know much about it. Anyone have a link, and is it open content?

I was pleased with how my armor system worked out. It uses both a Defense bonus and DR (which is in the form of Armor Dice (AD), not a static number). The AD protects against all attacks, including energy, whereas DR applies only to slash/piercing/blunt/ballistic, and only comes from natural, class or mutation sources. They stack. The penetration score negates AD on a point for point basis. (this allows for a lot of variance in weapons, without having to always increase damage or crit range). For instance, a laser rifle can do the same damage as an m-16, but has a better pen., thus being slightly better, for instance, without doing more damage.

It seems my best bet is to modify the MD rules or try out one of the systems I mentioned above and see if they fit better. I didn't find the W/V systems different enough from HP to overhaul the whole game for it.

Danzig, what tweaking did you do exatcly? I too found the hit points of vehicles rather low and adjusted them too, based mostly on size. For instance a Large car has 50 hit points, whereas a huge truck has 100. I used the mecha hit points as a base 100, 200, 400, 800 depending on size.