Wound / vitality system pros

[Aussiegamer]

Great discussion so far, thanks. (I'm not much of a chatter as you can see, but I do read ;-)
Couple new questions.
Is Nexus an open content rules system? I will definitely check it out if it is.
What about True20? I have seen it mentioned quite a bit, but don't know much about it. Anyone have a link, and is it open content?

yes Nexus is, its still in draft form but is still usable. I know as I have two playtests running now.

It is a seperate system, but it can be adapted to the system you want to use. The only worry is that I have made it for Nexus and thus it might not transfer over well for some of it.

A new chat area has been opened up for those interested. Yes..I know another change, but no its just a small patio on the building not a new house....aaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh! Poof!

 

[genshou]

SW OCR was bad IMO with armour only adding to defence and you had to choose between the higher of Classl based Defence and Armour based Defence. This created the weird sitaution when armour could actually be of no effect.

This can work great, if done right. I've been using an armour-as-AC combined with class defense bonus mechanic in the D&D game I'm advertising in my sig. There are limits to how much of the class defense bonus you can get when wearing armour, so eventually it can be better at high levels for a Fighter to wear no armour at all, for the sake of mobility. I think in the revival I'm going to make armour grant DR, to change the effects around a bit. That way there's a clear trade-off between armour and a higher Defense. You're harder to hit without armour at high levels, but if you're wearing it a lot of attacks won't hurt nearly as much, if at all.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The hit point system has always bothered me for a number of reasons but the worst is the impossible task of taking a hostage and actually making any player that knows the rules take it seriously.

It just can't happen within the rules. One issue is the way that actions are resolved and the biggest reason is the hp system. At least with a WP/VP system the glut of hps even a mid-level character has can be ignored in such a situation and perhaps make taking a hostage a tense roleplaying moment and not just a laughable inconvenience.

I am not certain if WP/VP really helps in this situation, but I am not familiar with the current incarnations of the WP/VP system. If Wound damage is still only triggered on a critical hit, I would prefer the Massive Damage Threshold variant - though in either system, a knife will have little chance of killing a person (either because it has to much WP, or because you never trigger the MDT)

[TANGENT ALERT]
Hostage situations are difficult in all systems, I think, unless there is a special mechanic for it. If I think of Shadowrun (both 3.0 or 4.0), it is difficult to get enough hits/successes to kill a person with one shot, unless the hostage taker is seriously twinked for it. Even then, there is usually still some margin after lethal damage actually is deadly.

I think the best choice is to have (maybe Spycraft has that to offer? Or Torg?) a special dramatic resolution system. As an example, the master spends a "Drama Point" (which later gives some compensation to the characters - extra XPs, extra action points or whatever you like) and declares the situation to be a "dramatic hostage situation", allowing the hostage taker to make a coup-de-grace at the hostage if the players fail to stop him quickly. (While at the same time, the mechanic might allow a similar "instant-kill" attack by the PCs - provided they succeed their attack or maneuver)

 

[Armistice]

Spycraft, even in its first iteration had a specific rule to cover the hostage event or Extremely Deadly Situation. The second editition of the game cleans up some of the language and makes Terminal Situations (determined by the GC) extremely deadly, i.e spend an action die to make a character unconcious or dead. Things like vitality and wound points have no bearing on a Terminal Situation.

As a side note the coup de grace action has been markedly upgraded and some feats and abilities work directly with this combat option.

 

[Eternal Knot Games]

Grim-and-Gritty has an intresting wound level type thing. Lots of people said it's more deadly and more fun. It also works for d20M from what I can understand.

 

[ogre]

I concur with the whole 'hostage taking' problems with d20. This also touches with the 'knock a person out' when a rogue wants to disable guards or whatever. I like the 'terminal situation' concept, as then it would apply only during certain situations and not every combat. That was always the problem with 'knockout' rules, you can't be allowed to use them whenever. Sneak attack addressed this somewhat, but is still inadiquate.
I had pondered a rule where if someone has a gun drawn on you and you're not armed they would have a huge adavanatge over you. With HP as they are, PCs (or NPCs for that matter) could just act, take the hit and proceed from there without risk of serious injury. I would prefer there was something to make PCs stop and unable to act in a situation like this, which is pretty much the same thing as a hostage situation.
What about a ranged coup de gras?
The only thing I'd like that would make a PC of any level ignore a threat like mentioned above should be, armor that can simply negate the attack or a specific mutation power that offers super quickness or something else relevant.

Anyone know if True20 is open content? And if so, where do I find it?

 

[ogre]

aussiegamer... I guess I have to join the yahoo group to read the rules? Also, you mention it's not for publication, without permission. So, I'll ask this before I delve further. Are you willing to allow me to publish what I want to extract from it, parts, peices etc. as I see fit? Or is it more of a 'take all or nothing' concept?

 

[Armistice]

As far as I know the Spycraft ruleset is OGL you might check with them about their take on it.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

My solutions involve modifications of Massive Damage Threshold and MDT saves.

1) I use D&D-style Nonlethal Damage/Subdual Damage (accruing damage)
2) I use "Damage Conversion", where incoming damage is transformed from Lethal to Nonlethal damage based on the AC/Def bonus of the armor. You get the Def bonus and the conversion.
3) You can use a Full Round Action or the Exploit Weakness Talent (as an Attack Action) to strike a Flatfooted opponent and force an MDT save regardless of the damage dealt (I.E. even if the attack does 1 damage, they still make a save).
4) Nonlethal MDTs
5) Sliding MDT scales - 10, Con, 10+Con Bonus ... MDT Save = DC 15, MDT Save = DC 10+(1/2 damage) ... etc etc.

This allows for sap-strikes (flat-footed opponent, NL damage, force an MDT), ninja assassins, heavy armor, etc ... while, I think, not really monkeying with many of the base assumptions from the D20Modern book ... meaning that 3rd party products remain usable without rewriting. With Conversion, you're still out of the combat at the same time ... just not dying. With adjustable MDTs you can set how deadly you want a particular game to be without adding new types of hit points or armor.

Just my preference, I suppose. I've never been a fan of VP/WP. The best incarnations involve Action Points/Dice on both sides of the screen and requirements for confirming critical hits ... if the dice do the confirming the game goes really pointless really quick. One minute the heroes are untouchable, the next dead ... do not pass go, do not collect 200 buckeroos.

--fje

 

[Aussiegamer]

aussiegamer... I guess I have to join the yahoo group to read the rules? Also, you mention it's not for publication, without permission. So, I'll ask this before I delve further. Are you willing to allow me to publish what I want to extract from it, parts, peices etc. as I see fit? Or is it more of a 'take all or nothing' concept?

This discussion is best off board, send me an email. I am number one member funnily enough