Wound / vitality system pros

[Skywalker]

Anyone know if True20 is open content? And if so, where do I find it?

True 20 is Open Gaming Content. However, if you actually asking can you download it for free then you won't be able to (like most OGC). You can buy the True 20 book in print at your LGS and there is a quickstart at www.true20.com.

 

[Aussiegamer]

I am still waiting to here form you Orge?

You still interested?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Characters learn to rely on armour to stay alive

I don't know if this is a good thing, actually. That's removing viable character concepts.

and there's always the chance that one lucky hit could really do you in.

Always a positive.

A note about the hostage situation; the hostage is severely imperiled if they're low level (a necessity for actually taking them hostage; they'll have low hp or vp anyway).

As for the hostage taker taking a bead on my character, if I have a good Defense I may take the risk that he might not even hit me, or if I'm wearing armor I may take the risk that the shot will do no damage. This came up in Alternity, a game system where your hp was equal to your Con score, and humans couldn't have a Con higher than 14. People still took risks. Combat is a risk by itself.

 

[genshou]

I don't know if this is a good thing, actually. That's removing viable character concepts.

In the context of the campaign I was running at the time (Starship Troopers), it was a very good thing. I didn't want unarmoured PCs to be gallivanting about like elven swashbucklers and expecting to survive getting hit by bullets, getting chopped by vibro-weapons, and being chewed on by alien bugs. It's certainly possible to stay alive without armour in vitality/wounds; look at the Star Wars movies and see how many heroes wear armour? But when you get to playing the RPG, you find that, unlike in the movies, there's no "plot protection" to keep you safe when that lucky blaster shot happens. I think the added realism is a bonus if that's the style of game you're going for, even if it means the PC who insists on playing an unarmoured character dies easier because he's not protected.

 

[solkan_uk]

Spycraft uses W/VP and it works very well, I think.
Of course Spycraft changes quite a few other things which may impact this. Critical hits are quite altered for instance (requiring an Action Die to activate, rather than a confirmation roll) - In Spycraft armour actually lowers your Defence (AC renamed, as it has nothing to do with armour), but gives you DR. Which is how I always imagine armour should work (I can't recall if hitting medium/heavy load also lowers your Defence at the moment, but I assume so).

If you are serious about switching to W/VP I'd recommend it, it won't integrate with modern without a lot a work, but IMHO it's the best instance of W/VP in d20 (available in .pdf on DriveThruRPG & RPGNow!, if you don't want to fork out for a dead tree version).

Slotting into Modern shouldn't be too bad, as at least Defence bonuses are already in play, in D&D it's just messy, as to make it work right (assuming you're switching to armour as DR as well) you've got to give classes a Def bonus and then the classes have to be rebalanced etc.

 

[ogre]

My appologies aussiegamer, sometimes life just goes too fast... I've been busy getting ready to head across country (US) on a 3 week journey and haven't had much time to check back here *sigh*. So, I'll need to take a rain check on the discussion, as I'll be gone in a couple days until September. I'll contact you when I get back. Thanks for the patience.

 

[ogre]

My solutions involve modifications of Massive Damage Threshold and MDT saves.

1) I use D&D-style Nonlethal Damage/Subdual Damage (accruing damage)
2) I use "Damage Conversion", where incoming damage is transformed from Lethal to Nonlethal damage based on the AC/Def bonus of the armor. You get the Def bonus and the conversion.
3) You can use a Full Round Action or the Exploit Weakness Talent (as an Attack Action) to strike a Flatfooted opponent and force an MDT save regardless of the damage dealt (I.E. even if the attack does 1 damage, they still make a save).
4) Nonlethal MDTs
5) Sliding MDT scales - 10, Con, 10+Con Bonus ... MDT Save = DC 15, MDT Save = DC 10+(1/2 damage) ... etc etc.

Heap, this systems looks pretty good. I use 1 and 4 currently. 2 seems like it might be a little confusing to the players, but I like the fact that it would seem to put a larger cusion between death and unconciousness, which I think is always more exciting. 5- do you deviate based on the situation or based on the game. Meaning, do you set the rule for each campaign or does it change on the fly?

Well from what solkan_uk said, it seems spycraft may be too much work to convert to a W/VP system. I don't want to sway too far from d20 and I'll think I'll try the tweaking the MD rules before such a major overhaul.

Thanks for the link skywalker! Question, perhaps I'm confused, but are you saying I can't use it as OGL unless I buy the book? Seems hard to believe, so I must be misunderstanding you. (edit: lol I just saw on the site True20 won the Ogre's choice award...hmmmmmmmmm )

cya all in September... after I drive 6000 miles and 100 hours....................................

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Heap, this systems looks pretty good. I use 1 and 4 currently. 2 seems like it might be a little confusing to the players, but I like the fact that it would seem to put a larger cusion between death and unconciousness, which I think is always more exciting. 5- do you deviate based on the situation or based on the game. Meaning, do you set the rule for each campaign or does it change on the fly?

The Damage Conversion bit takes a bit to get used to. I'd say about one session before it becomes unconcious. It adds a little math, but the same little math as having some DR. You end up with a double-column of HP, though. The same rules have always been there (from D&D, anyway) but they don't come up as often until you go with Damage Conversion mechanic.

It adds a cushion between unconciousness and death. It also adds in some of that "we're the heroes" of VP/WP by adding in some "VP" that will return after a few hours from the NL damage. The heroes can recover a bit of their HP from an hour or two of downtime, but they can't just return to full strength (as most armor isn't going to fully convert incoming damage to NL damage).

I don't adjust the MDT stuff on the fly (yet, hrm, might be a situation where it would work). Usually I "set" them based on the parameters of the campaign I'd like to run. More heroic, MDT=Con and DC=15. Don't want good shots to become small threats? MDT=Con, DC=10+(0.5*Damage).

My gritty sci-fi western is MDT=10, DC=10+(0.5*Damage).

You can choose to do Damage Conversion before or after checking for MDT, which changes things again. I've only used Before, myself, but it would increase the MDTs to do it after, especially with the lower thresholds. Before the threshold, effectively, includes the Armor. So, say, if MDT=Con and armor gives conversion, a guy in +9 armor is going to take a BIG hit before he even has a chance of going down from the damage alone.

--fje

 

[Aussiegamer]

My appologies aussiegamer, sometimes life just goes too fast... I've been busy getting ready to head across country (US) on a 3 week journey and haven't had much time to check back here *sigh*. So, I'll need to take a rain check on the discussion, as I'll be gone in a couple days until September. I'll contact you when I get back. Thanks for the patience.

Sure - enjoy the drive

 

[genshou]

The Damage Conversion bit takes a bit to get used to. I'd say about one session before it becomes unconcious. It adds a little math, but the same little math as having some DR. You end up with a double-column of HP, though. The same rules have always been there (from D&D, anyway) but they don't come up as often until you go with Damage Conversion mechanic.

It adds a cushion between unconciousness and death. It also adds in some of that "we're the heroes" of VP/WP by adding in some "VP" that will return after a few hours from the NL damage. The heroes can recover a bit of their HP from an hour or two of downtime, but they can't just return to full strength (as most armor isn't going to fully convert incoming damage to NL damage).

I don't adjust the MDT stuff on the fly (yet, hrm, might be a situation where it would work). Usually I "set" them based on the parameters of the campaign I'd like to run. More heroic, MDT=Con and DC=15. Don't want good shots to become small threats? MDT=Con, DC=10+(0.5*Damage).

My gritty sci-fi western is MDT=10, DC=10+(0.5*Damage).

You can choose to do Damage Conversion before or after checking for MDT, which changes things again. I've only used Before, myself, but it would increase the MDTs to do it after, especially with the lower thresholds. Before the threshold, effectively, includes the Armor. So, say, if MDT=Con and armor gives conversion, a guy in +9 armor is going to take a BIG hit before he even has a chance of going down from the damage alone.

--fje

The extrapolation makes this sound pretty cool.