D&D 5E Wounds and Vitality module, what default mechanics don't fit?

[Ruin Explorer]

Having played a LOT of d20 Star Wars, I grew to LOATHE V/WP. Good in theory, terrible in execution. Fights ended stupid quick and nobody cared about vitality since than small pool of wound was all that mattered. At low levels, armor is king. At high levels (when you have multiple d8 lightsaber damage) all you can do is take Improved Critical at the first opportunity pray you get the first crit...

I sincerely hope the DMG V/WP system is "in name only" since the one was so disliked by the SW community, Star Wars Saga abandoned it for normal HP!

This.

Prior to 3E's release, when much was still up in the air, I was a big booster for a VP/WP-type system (I believe we even called it that) to replace D&D's HP system (for many of the stated reasons). Luckily, I didn't get my wish, because actual VP/WP systems in the d20 games tended to be horrid in practice (I hear some d20 Fantasy game managed to make it work decently by using a very different version of it, but I forget which it was).

Hopefully, whatever Mearls does, they really think it through, and don't provide a half-arsed system that breaks very easily, which I kind of feel the SWd20 VP/WP one was. I am a little skeptical, though, because the SWd20 looked good on paper, and it was only playtesting that showed how bad it actually worked out.

 

[Frostmarrow]

1) Introduce slashed, pierced and bludgeoned to the list of conditions.
2) State that conditions only apply to targets with 0 hp or less.
3) Insert damage dice to attacks that traditionally just comes with a condition.

Example: Sleep could deal 1d6 damage [sleep] and victims that are reduced to 0 hp or less fall asleep.

Note: Slashed, pierced and bludgeoned should tie in to the death save mechanic with three successes before three failures.

 

[Sadras]

This discussion is like a hydra's head.

WOUNDS & EFFECTS
The Module to easily tack on is similar to the Optional Fatigue Rules - which reflect number of Wounds one can sustain before one is dead and each level of Fatigue/Wound's effects. No additional work necessary.

HOW ARE THEY OBTAINED
Count the 1st hit point as meat, so if you lose it you gain a Wound and determine if a Critical Hit auto provides a Wound or if some confirmation die is necessary. Group decides.

RECOVERY TIME & HEALING
Lastly determine natural recovery time for Wounds based on grittiness and how healing works i.e. Level 2 Wound requires a Cure Wounds (2nd level) to heal it to 0 Wounds or to a Level 1 Wound? Group decides.
Also does healing (potion/spell/other) require the victim to not be exerting himself for x rounds before the Wound is healed. Hit points on the other hand are healed immediately as they are Vitality/Stamina...etc

Its complexity = 0 since you're not tracking two sets of "hit points" totals which latter system would not assist fluid play.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Mike Mearls mentioned that he was working on the Wounds / Vitality system for 5e based on Wounds reducing your Max HP, like energy drain does. He mentioned that it was set up so a portion of damage went to reducing Max HP, so if you have 10 HP and are hit with 8 damage, your current HP is 2 but your MAX HP is say, 6.
My question is how to divide this up? You probably don't want Crits to all go straight to reducing Max HP, and you probably don't want to have to track a reduction in HP each time you're hit.
What if you reduce Max HP if the damage is greater than your CON score?

I do this currently with my 4E game, where in addition to the Bloodied condition at 50% HP... I also have Bruised at 75% HP and Injured at 25% HP.

Whenever a player is dropped to 0 HP... they are knocked unconscious and also get a wound-- which gives them the Bruised condition. They can still regain HP as normal after the fight via healing surges and whatnot... but their Max HP is now at 75%. So if they normally have 40 HP... they can only heal back up to 30 HP now. If they were to get knocked unconscious again in a later fight, they move down to the Bloodied condition and their Max HP is only 50% of normal (by this example 20 HP). Third time goes to Injured (and 25% Max, or 10 HP), fourth time is Dead.

In addition, I also combine this with the Death Saves mechanic... when a failed Death save also drops you a wound level. So if you are uninjured before a fight (at normal Max HP) and get knocked unconscious... you drop a wound level to Bruised. Now because you are below 0 HP (knocked out) you have to make Death saves. You fail the first save, your wound level drops to Bloodied. Fail the second save, you drop to Injured. Third failed save you die (both because of the normal rule that says three failed Deaths saves kills you, but also because you lost that final wound level.)

These Wound levels cannot be regained through normal healing methods that require the spending of healing surges (like all the Healing Word type powers, potions of healing or the like.) Anything that requires the spending of healing surges does not recover wound levels, only your HP as normal, up ot whatever your wound level's Max HP is now set at. Wound levels are only removed through bed rest for a duration as determined by the DM (and I make that call usually based upon how many fights the PC was in, what they fought, where the party is resting etc.)

I also probably would have allowed wound levels to be regained via powers that allowed healing of HP without needing to spend healing surges (like the Cure Light Wounds power for example)... but as none of my players have any powers like that (all healing powers they have all require the spending of healing surges), I do not know if that rule would have made wound levels trivial or not.

I look forward to seeing how wounds / long term healing / HP/VP / reduced max HP etc. are all offered up as variants in the new edition and in the DMG. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

 

[Paraxis]

I am happy with h.p the way the work now for default D&D fantasy, if I wanted to run a grim and gritty game and use 5e for the system I would house rule in something like the injury system from the video game Dragon Age: Origins. Here is the wiki link. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Injuries

Basicly if you go below 0 h.p or if you take a critical hit you get a penalty to all checks using an ability score. I would give disadvantage and just roll randomly using a d6. It takes a week or some form of healing magic around 3rd level or so to remove an injury.

 

[sidonunspa]

Having played a LOT of d20 Star Wars, I grew to LOATHE V/WP. Good in theory, terrible in execution. Fights ended stupid quick and nobody cared about vitality since than small pool of wound was all that mattered. At low levels, armor is king. At high levels (when you have multiple d8 lightsaber damage) all you can do is take Improved Critical at the first opportunity pray you get the first crit...

I sincerely hope the DMG V/WP system is "in name only" since the one was so disliked by the SW community, Star Wars Saga abandoned it for normal HP!

I found an easy way to manage wound damage....

you can only deal 1 wound at a time,

In Arcanis RPG we have an optional system where if a target suffers stamina (our vitality) damage equal to or grater then the target's fortitude defense the target also suffers a wound of damage.

the same system can be modified for 5e (I already plan to)

My proposal

• Characters start with wounds equal to Str + Con bonuses (so 10 wounds max)
• Stamina = to class HP
• Any time a target suffers damage equal to or grater then their con score, they suffer a wound
• Crits automatically deal a wound, regardless of damage rolled
• target gets to 0 stamina they are KO'd
• target gets to 0 wounds, they need to start making death saving throws
• if a healing spell heals more stamina then the characters con they heal a wound
• cure wounds cast as a 3rd level spell or above heals 1 wound per spell level above the 1st
• characters can heal 1 wound per day of full rest, heal stamina like HP though the use of HD
• characters who fail three death saves can opt to sacrifice a wound and gain a nasrt scar in the process.

 

[Sadrik]

I should point out I use wounds in my 3e games for the last few years though it is modified.

I think what this thread shows is that there are many different ways to handle a wound/vitality system. All are not good. My advice to the R&D team is to strip it down and make it as simple as possible and then offer some options for it.

So the basics might be:

• Your HP total is unchanged
• You get a Wound total equal to your CON score plus your level
• You take Wound damage after your HP are at 0
• If your Wounds are 0 you die
• You recover HP normally
• Wounds recover 1 per day, 2 with rest or care, or 4 with rest and care

Then add-ons can be things like (allow the DM to pick and choose for the feel he or she is looking for):

• Coupe de Grace deals wound damage
• Unaware defenders take wound damage (sneak attack gives bonus)
• Critical hits deal wound damage
• Massive damage deals wound damage (a threshold where for every X HP damage you take 1 wound damage)
• Death effects lower HP to 0 and deal wound damage
• Energy drain deals wound damage
• Minion monsters and NPC have only 1 wound
• When you take wound damage make a CON save to maintain consciousness
• Heal all wounds after a long rest and all HP on a short rest
• Cure spell heals 1 wound for each level cast at in addition to any HP cured
• Cure spell heals wounds first then HP second
• When expending HD for healing cure 1 wound per die or cure the HP as normal
• Certain attacks must deal wound damage to be effective, poisonous bite, energy drain etc.
• Objects only have wounds
• Fatigued if wound damage is taken

 

[Lalato]

I remember these, and thought they were ok. I much prefered the Paizo crit hit deck. It provides some lingering wounds style effects, subject to the DM filling in the details.

I played with the Paizo deck as well. I'm not a fan of critical hits being anything other than a good hit. For me, a critical hit is its own reward. Adding other effects to a critical hit should require magic item, a feat, or something else.

Same goes for rolling a 1 on an attack. Missing is already bad enough. It means that you essentially did nothing for a round. To also have your miss turn into something worse just seems dumb and takes more time to adjudicate than it's worth. So for me... Critical Hit/Fumble extras don't work.

That said, I'm glad it works for others. It's an interesting design space within a game. And maybe someday someone will come up with something that somehow makes sense to me. (how many "some"s can you fit in a sentence? )

 

[Enkhidu]

...* Remember how crits go straight to wound? This is HUGE! In a game where a common blaster pistol from a stormtrooper does 3d8 damage and lightsabers can reach 6d8+strength, your measly 14 con is a speedbump. Every combat is Russian roulette and nearly all of them end with the first crit. (Remember, if you take a point of wound you become fatigued, hastening the death spiral by lowering your attack/defense). And since PCs take more crits than any single NPC, expect to replace A LOT of PCs due to random crits. The system is great if you want the "death threat" in every combat, but very unsatisfying when you expect a fight to go like Darth Maul vs. Obi-wan & Qui-Gon and instead get Mace vs. Jango Fett (done in three rounds to a crit).

Most of the hue and cry over WP/VP replacements for hit point revolves around this problem (at least as far as I've seen) - crits and sneak attacks go directly to the former. Divorce that mechanic from the whole, or just modify it a bit, and it becomes a more solid alternative.

Example: change "damage going to directly to wound points" to "does one wound point in damage in addition to regular damage to vitality." It enables you to keep the hurt/injured dichotomy, apply different healing rates, and apply fatigue/exhaustion penalties where appropriate.

 

[jrowland]

I'm working on something now for my own games.

The gist is:

When taking damage:
Crit = Wound
Bloodied = Wound
0 HP = Wound
Enhanced Crit = Wound (High Crit Weapon, Class Feature, etc)

Any regular hit that meets any of these criteria causes a wound of severity = to the sum of all criteria met (ie A critical hit that bloodies the target does a wound of severity 2. A critical hit with a high Crit weapon that both bloodies and brings the target to 0 hp does a wound of severity 4)

Wound Threshold = Con Score
Sum Total of all Wound Severity > Wound Threshold = Death
Gaining a Wound of Severity >= Con Modifier = con save or fall unconscious (disadvantage when 0hp. Yes, Con 20 means you can't fall unconscious)

Cure wounds works as normal for HP. Cure wounds gains a ritual version that heals Wounds. 1 wound per casting <= level of cure wounds cast (ie Cure wounds cast in a 4th level slot as a ritual heals 1 wound of severity 4 or less). Most, if not all other magic healing is HP (potions of healing, wands of healing, etc unless there is such a thing as a magic item that holds a ritual heal...maybe a Staff of Life or some such)

Natural Healing (this is where I am stymied until I see what 'gritty' and 'heroic' healing modules are out there) is a wound drops in severity for every day of light activity = to current severity (Severity 4 wound becomes a severity 3 wound after 4 days of rest. Thus a Severity 4 wound takes 10 days to completely heal). With complete rest (ie a hospital) a medicine check can be made to lower one wound in severity in a time period equal to the highest severity with a DC = 10+2xSeverity. e.g. a Severity 4 wound treated by a successful medicine check (18 or higher) would be lowered to severity 3 in 4 days, but because of the medicine treatment with complete rest is lowered to a severity 2 in 4 days.

I'll probably go with a faster HP recovery module as well

Yeah, its fiddly. Very.

My design philosophy is to design comprehensively which usually means fiddly, then pare it back to essentials as I Play test it (I haven't yet).

One could add conditions to wounds (severity 4 means x, severity 3 means Y, etc. or use random tables to imply conditions to body parts like you can't use your hand, or leg is gimped with a penalty to speed, etc) but that is getting even more fiddly.

Mostly I'll rely on role-playing for the wounds. If you are wounded (ie have active wounds) play it as you see fit. Seeing the King will surely draw gasps from the courtiers for such uncouth presentation, eg.

I think combat effectiveness will be lowered simply by PCs taking less risks as the wounds add up. I can't be bothered with penalties. If I did, It would be equal to:
(Highest Severity -2) if bloodied to full hp
(Highest Severity -1) if 1hp to bloodied
(Highest Severity) if 0hp.

anyway, work in progress, my 2cp. YMMV, etc