D&D 5E Wounds and Vitality module, what default mechanics don't fit?

[Sadras]

I think what this thread shows is that there are many different ways to handle a wound/vitality system. All are not good.

So everyone's idea in this thread sucks. Bummer!

 

[Lanefan]

I should point out I use wounds in my 3e games for the last few years though it is modified.

I think what this thread shows is that there are many different ways to handle a wound/vitality system. All are not good. My advice to the R&D team is to strip it down and make it as simple as possible and then offer some options for it.

So the basics might be:

• Your HP total is unchanged
• You get a Wound total equal to your CON score plus your level
• You take Wound damage after your HP are at 0
• If your Wounds are 0 you die
• You recover HP normally
• Wounds recover 1 per day, 2 with rest or care, or 4 with rest and care

This seems at first glance quite OK (except WP should be a fixed number that does not change with level or Con score), but for the love of the goddess please give what you are calling "HP" another name (I call tehm fatigue points, or FP); as "hit points" is the total of your wound/body points and your vitality/fatigue points.

In fact, looking further at this I could really get behind it if there was less variance in how many WP one might start with and-or Con wasn't so important (it's already got too much to do vs. the other stats). As you write it here a 1st-level character could in theory have between 4 and 19 WP (3-18 Con score + 1 for level) plus the initial FP roll which is also affected by Con., making the 1st-level hit point range go from 5 to 33 (the 33 is 19 WP + 10 on the fighter h.p. die + 4 for Con 18). Too big a range.

I'd suggest a WP value of something more like 10 + d4 (or even 2d2) + positive Con. bonus. Why 10? Because it very nicely brings forward the death-at-minus-10 idea and builds it in to WP. As everyone always starts with at least 1 h.p. in any edition, here you'd have to start with at least 11 WP thus no negative Con. modifiers to the initial WP number. The trick then is to stop the high-Con. types from starting with too many WP - maybe cap the WP Con. bonus at +2 such that everyone starts with between 11 and 16 WP? In any case, this number is locked in for life once set at 1st level.

As for the options listed below (I didn't bother putting quote tags around every one of them):

Then add-ons can be things like (allow the DM to pick and choose for the feel he or she is looking for):

[*]Coupe de Grace deals wound damage

No, C-de-G bypasses damage entirely and gives a chance to kill outright; if you blow this chance you still deal normal damage but not necessarily straight to WP.


[*]Unaware defenders take wound damage (sneak attack gives bonus)

[*]Critical hits deal wound damage

[*]Massive damage deals wound damage (a threshold where for every X HP damage you take 1 wound damage)

No. With very rare exceptions you don't take WP damage until all your FP are gone; it's easier to track that way.


[*]Death effects lower HP to 0 and deal wound damage

Death effects kill outright. That's what makes them death effects.


[*]Energy drain deals wound damage

Energy drain costs levels, and thus knocks something off your FP total. WP aren't affected.


[*]Minion monsters and NPC have only 1 wound

NPCs have the same WP as anyone else. Monsters have their normal HP however determined. Minions don't exist.


[*]When you take wound damage make a CON save to maintain consciousness

Yes! Better yet, and to make it tougher, use a roll-under mechanic where you need to hit your current WP total or lower in order to stay up; with Con. bonus applying in reverse (thus a 14 Con, usually a +2 bonus, would make your roll seem 2 points lower here). A straight Con. save doesn't factor in the condition of the victim; someone with 9 WP left should have a far easier time staying conscious than someone with only 2.


[*]Heal all wounds after a long rest and all HP on a short rest

[*]Cure spell heals 1 wound for each level cast at in addition to any HP cured

Optional. I'd have WP damage be much harder to recover wither by magical healing or by rest; FP return as normal.


[*]Cure spell heals wounds first then HP second

Yes.


[*]When expending HD for healing cure 1 wound per die or cure the HP as normal

Assuming one uses this mechanic at all. To be consistent I'd suggest in any case that all WP must be cured before you can even start on FP.


[*]Certain attacks must deal wound damage to be effective, poisonous bite, energy drain etc.

No! This would completely neuter poison, for one thing. FP still includes nicks, scratches, bruises etc.; the key thing being that they are all things that are relatively easy to patch up and-or recover from. But the tiniest scratch can still get poison into you.


[*]Objects only have wounds

Or objects just get saving throws modified by the amount of damage potentially being done to them?

Lan-"this all fits rather elegantly with what I'm already doing"-efan

 

[Sadrik]

This seems at first glance quite OK (except WP should be a fixed number that does not change with level or Con score), but for the love of the goddess please give what you are calling "HP" another name (I call tehm fatigue points, or FP); as "hit points" is the total of your wound/body points and your vitality/fatigue points.

In fact, looking further at this I could really get behind it if there was less variance in how many WP one might start with and-or Con wasn't so important (it's already got too much to do vs. the other stats). As you write it here a 1st-level character could in theory have between 4 and 19 WP (3-18 Con score + 1 for level) plus the initial FP roll which is also affected by Con., making the 1st-level hit point range go from 5 to 33 (the 33 is 19 WP + 10 on the fighter h.p. die + 4 for Con 18). Too big a range.

I'd suggest a WP value of something more like 10 + d4 (or even 2d2) + positive Con. bonus. Why 10? Because it very nicely brings forward the death-at-minus-10 idea and builds it in to WP. As everyone always starts with at least 1 h.p. in any edition, here you'd have to start with at least 11 WP thus no negative Con. modifiers to the initial WP number. The trick then is to stop the high-Con. types from starting with too many WP - maybe cap the WP Con. bonus at +2 such that everyone starts with between 11 and 16 WP? In any case, this number is locked in for life once set at 1st level.

I think there is a discussion for how many wound points characters could have.

Good ones:
10 + CON bonus + level
CON score + level
10
CON bonus + level

I can see advantages to each of these for differing reasons. The reason I think level is an important aspect is because of the high level phenomenon know as from life straight to death. I am at 10 HP then oops you just took 25 damage you pass the -10 and go directly to death. Creating a little level based scaling in there help reduce that a little.

[*]Coupe de Grace deals wound damage

No, C-de-G bypasses damage entirely and gives a chance to kill outright; if you blow this chance you still deal normal damage but not necessarily straight to WP.

I think this is a good option but clearly not for all games.

[*]Unaware defenders take wound damage (sneak attack gives bonus)

[*]Critical hits deal wound damage

[*]Massive damage deals wound damage (a threshold where for every X HP damage you take 1 wound damage)

No. With very rare exceptions you don't take WP damage until all your FP are gone; it's easier to track that way.

I think some players may want ways for wounds to slip in. These are options to do that.

[*]Death effects lower HP to 0 and deal wound damage

Death effects kill outright. That's what makes them death effects.

Not for all games, though I think it is pretty neat to put the death effect system into the basic HP system.

[*]Energy drain deals wound damage

Energy drain costs levels, and thus knocks something off your FP total. WP aren't affected.

A nasty way to make energy draining very scary and effective.

[*]Minion monsters and NPC have only 1 wound

NPCs have the same WP as anyone else. Monsters have their normal HP however determined. Minions don't exist.

Some people may want this, they don't want every goblin to go into a wound damage zone and just want it dead.

[*]When you take wound damage make a CON save to maintain consciousness

Yes! Better yet, and to make it tougher, use a roll-under mechanic where you need to hit your current WP total or lower in order to stay up; with Con. bonus applying in reverse (thus a 14 Con, usually a +2 bonus, would make your roll seem 2 points lower here). A straight Con. save doesn't factor in the condition of the victim; someone with 9 WP left should have a far easier time staying conscious than someone with only 2.

I also think this is a good option. I think a simple DC 5 CON save + the number wounds you have sustained could work.

[*]Heal all wounds after a long rest and all HP on a short rest

[*]Cure spell heals 1 wound for each level cast at in addition to any HP cured

Optional. I'd have WP damage be much harder to recover wither by magical healing or by rest; FP return as normal.

I don't like the first one. But I know there are many that would like it. The second one I do like it makes healing wounds not so easy, and 1 per spell level means that they will likely have to rest to get them all healed up, if someone was very wounded.

[*]Cure spell heals wounds first then HP second

Yes.

I dont like this one because it makes healing wounds too easy. Some may like it though.

[*]When expending HD for healing cure 1 wound per die or cure the HP as normal

Assuming one uses this mechanic at all. To be consistent I'd suggest in any case that all WP must be cured before you can even start on FP.

Agreed, if using wounds it may not make sense to also use HD healing. I did provide this option so that it could be though.

[*]Certain attacks must deal wound damage to be effective, poisonous bite, energy drain etc.

No! This would completely neuter poison, for one thing. FP still includes nicks, scratches, bruises etc.; the key thing being that they are all things that are relatively easy to patch up and-or recover from. But the tiniest scratch can still get poison into you.

I think this addresses the meat vs hp issue and a snake that bites you and does not use a coupe de grace is just going to do a couple of HP damage and it is not until your HP are gone does it actually poison you.

[*]Fatigued when wounds taken

Yes

 

[Lanefan]

I think there is a discussion for how many wound points characters could have.

Good ones:
10 + CON bonus + level
CON score + level
10
CON bonus + level

I can see advantages to each of these for differing reasons. The reason I think level is an important aspect is because of the high level phenomenon know as from life straight to death. I am at 10 HP then oops you just took 25 damage you pass the -10 and go directly to death. Creating a little level based scaling in there help reduce that a little.

Keep in mind, however, that you've already got the buffer of a lot more FP at high level, meaning that to get down to 10 FP left you've already taken some serious abuse. The other variable, of course, is how much damage high-level monsters tend to give out on a hit. But I can certainly see it happening where you go from above-full-WP to dead in one swing.

A nasty way to make energy draining very scary and effective.

Yep, straight out of 1e.

Some people may want this, they don't want every goblin to go into a wound damage zone and just want it dead.

Easy enough to say that something like a Goblin only has 5 + d3 WP (or in current terms it dies at -5 instead of -10). Where minions really break for me is the big stuff - Giants, Dragons, etc. - silly idea.

I think this addresses the meat vs hp issue and a snake that bites you and does not use a coupe de grace is just going to do a couple of HP damage and it is not until your HP are gone does it actually poison you.

The problem with this is that by the time poison becomes a concern you're almost dead from conventional damage anyway, which makes the poison kinda redundant. A character should be able to be at almost full total HP and still die from a deadly spider bite.

Lan-"still thinking long and hard about this stuff"-efan

 

[3catcircus]

I'm wondering if there is too much emphasis on a binary "hp or vp/wp" and no consideration of other potential systems to handle injuries.

I favor a system adapted from Twilight: 2013 where all creatures have a "base hit points" that is determined solely by STR and CON with some factors ([10 + STR + 2 x Con]/4), rounded down. So, assuming a PC has 14s, his base hit points are 13. I then assign multiples of that base (1 hp, base hp, base x 2, base x 3); Creatures smaller than small or larger than large have a size modifier (x1.5, x2, x3 for huge, gargantuan, colossal, and x 2/3, x 1/2, x 1/3 for tiny, diminutive, and fine). A standard Pathfinder sprite's hit points would be 1/4/8/12 and a great wyrm red dragon's would be 1/81/162/243. Bu-bu-but!?! A Great Wyrm should have 449 hp per Pathfinder stats, you say? You'll see why this isn't necessarily a problem by reading further.

If a creature suffers a wound that exceeds each of the various multiples of that base, escalating reductions in capability occur, with chances to go into shock or (with more serious wounds), the chance to begin bleeding to death. The wound levels are Light, Moderate, Serious, Critical and the various "Cure xx Wounds" heal a wound of that level. If you already have a wound of one level and suffer a second of the same level, the wound level jumps up by one; 3rd and subsequent wounds of that level do not do anything. I also use Armor as DR with this system. As an added level of complexity, hit locations can be used.

Suffering a light wounds causes a -1 penalty to all actions. A moderate is at -2 to all actions. A serious is -5 and a critical is at -10 to all actions. For wound levels of moderate or higher, a DC 15 Fort save must be made or go into shock (which causes you to be helpless for the rest of the round and must make a DC 15 Will save each subsequent round to act) and, for any additional combats during the day, any action that would make you go into shock makes you unstable instead. If you fail by 5 or more, you begin bleeding out (wound levels increase by one at the end of each round of combat until stabilized or you exceed critical, at which point you die). A critical wound results in automatic shock and a Fort save to avoid bleeding out. Adding in hit locations means that critical heads wounds or wounds causing you to bleed out result in unconsciousness, leg wounds reduce your movement rate, and arm wounds require a check to avoid dropping held items. If not using hit locations, I've determined that failing a Fort save to avoid bleeding out as a result of a critical wound results in unconsciousness.

Sound complicated, but it plays very very quickly. Best of all is that you don't have to do the "I've got 67 hp right now and just took 29 damage, so my new hp are..." Instead, "I've got thresholds of 1/15/30/45 and took 27 damage. That's a moderate wound. I'm -2 on all actions and must make a Fort save (at -2 on the roll) or go into shock." Next round, "I just took 12 damage, so I've got a light wound. That's my second light wound which makes it a moderate wound, which, combined with the moderate wound I took last round means I've got a serious wound. My shock save is now at -5. Crap, I'd better run or get the cleric to drop a cure spell on me."

Non-lethal wounds are very very easy but just a little more complex - instead of shock and bleeding out, it becomes fatigued and exhausted (which means your base hit points are reduced by however much your strength decreased). I simply have a small table for hit points on character sheets: normal, fatigued, exhausted, and you shift down as you take sufficient non-lethal damage.

As you can see - this makes combat against pushovers end more quickly while combat against BBEGs will still take a bit of time (but not necessarily an hour's worth of time at the game table to resolve a combat that takes umpteen rounds.)

 

[Stalker0]

If Star Wars just removed the stupid crit ignores vitality rule (or did it where it goes to wounds but the damage is dramatically reduced) the system would have been fine.

 

[nerfherder]

I used the rules from Roger Musson's "How to Lose Hit Points and Survive" article 30 years ago when I played AD&D in the 80's. It worked great for us.