Wow, do I not understand Wildshape....

[Steverooo]

Questions:

• What qualifies as "extra" limbs? How does that answer change if your race has, say, 4 arms instead of 2?

• 
  
  More than four qualifies. Even if you ordinarily have six plus, you must have the monstrous Multiattack Feat to use them all!
  
  

  [*] If you have the natural weapons, does that mean you use them? Humans have 2 arms, but they are not allowed two hand slaps per round.

  
  Yes! See the description of the Druid's Weapons Proficiencies in the PHB. You have auto-proficiency with all of the natural weapons of critters you Wildshape into!
  
  

  [*]Why does mutliple attacks from high BAB only apply to character classes?

  
  Only Humans have Martial Art-forms. The Tiger doesn't know Tiger-style Kung-Fu, nor the Monkey Monkey-Style... Not unless he has been Awakened, and started acquiring Monk levels... THEN he could learn it!
  
  

  [*]How does high BAB from character class interact with high BAB from monster HD? Why the difference?

See the Monster Manual or Savage Species, on that. In short, a "monster" (including an animal) has to acquire all "Monster levels" first, then begin acquiring class levels.

 

[jgsugden]

Many people have issues with wildshape. Polymorph seems to be unclear to most players. As a result, there are dozens of interpretations for how it should be played. These interpretations have been popping up on message boards all over. If it frustrates you, PLEASE follow the instructions on the 3.5 PHB errata sheet and request clarification on how polymorph works from custserv@wizards.com.

To do this, send an email to custserv@wizards.com with the subject of: ERRATA: PHB pg 263, Polymoprh is unclear.

Include a brief explanation of what you do not understand. If enough of us do this, they'll get around to making clarifications.

After a lot of investigation, I've found a few comments by Andy Collins (3.5 PHB head honcho) on his message boards and on the WotC message boards that give a fairly clear answer to this issue. Unfortunately, custserv@wizards.com contradicted him, so a final answer is unclear, but I use the info from Andy. Here is a summary:

First of all, druids in animal shape gain the animal type, so they do gain low-liht vision as it is a trait of that type. Many people disagree on this issue, but Andy Collins has specified that this was one of the intentions behind changing the type of a creature during polymorph. Similarly, when in plant form, the druid gains immunity to mind-affecting effects, low-light vision, immunity to poison, immunity to sleep effects, immunity to paralysis, immunity to polymorph, immunity to stunning and is not subject to critical hits. They also gain all the extraordinary special attacks of the new form.

Secondly, when a druid adopts a plant or animal form, they use the natural attack progression of that form. This means that a druid in bear form gets a claw/claw/bite progression. There is a limit on the attacks: the druid can not gain extra attacks due to extra limbs due to the polymoprh restriction. Turning into an octopus, for instance, does not get you eight tentacle attacks. Basically, the druid is limited to two 'limb' attacks (generally claw or slam), but gets all other attacks (tail slap, bite, gore, etc ...).This is overruled by some extraordinary attacks, such as a tiger's pounce which allows two extra limb attacks with the back claws (rakes).

The druid must pay attention to the primary and secondary nature of the attacks, as well. If the bear has claws as a primary attack and a bite as a secondary attack, the claw attacks of a druid in bear form are both done at full attack bonus and the bite is at -5 as a secondary attack.

Bonus feats of the animal are passed on to the druid in wildshape form, so a druid wildshaped into a dire rat gains weapon finesse while a rat. If an animal form had multiattack as a bonus feat, the druid would gain multiattack.

Once again: This is what I have been able to glean out of Andy's posts. As such, it is my belief that this is the intent of the man responsible for the ability in the first place. It is one interpretation of the written rules, but it is certainly not the only interpretation that can be drawn from what was written.

I can say this, however: This interpretation works very well.

 

[Gina]

Once again: This is what I have been able to glean out of Andy's posts. As such, it is my belief that this is the intent of the man responsible for the ability in the first place. It is one interpretation of the written rules, but it is certainly not the only interpretation that can be drawn from what was written.

I can say this, however: This interpretation works very well.

This is a very clear and easily understood summary! Thank you....it seems that it should work pretty well.....

Of course, I am only a player and Nail is our DM, so he gets to make the final decision as to what way to go.

Rowan

 

[Iku Rex]

I've found a few comments by Andy Collins (3.5 PHB head honcho) on his message boards and on the WotC message boards that give a fairly clear answer to this issue.
...

First of all, druids in animal shape gain the animal type, so they do gain low-liht vision as it is a trait of that type. Many people disagree on this issue, but Andy Collins has specified that this was one of the intentions behind changing the type of a creature during polymorph. Similarly, when in plant form, the druid gains immunity to mind-affecting effects, low-light vision, immunity to poison, immunity to sleep effects, immunity to paralysis, immunity to polymorph, immunity to stunning and is not subject to critical hits.

...

Secondly, when a druid adopts a plant or animal form, they use the natural attack progression of that form. This means that a druid in bear form gets a claw/claw/bite progression.

Cite? I've been reading both WotC's and Andy's boards and I don't remember any such posts by Andy.

 

[Camarath]

I'm not sure, but I think this is from MM, but I know I've seen it somewhere in 3.5.

-The Souljourner

Are these the rules you are reffering to?

Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack-generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.
Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.
When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.
The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.
Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.
Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.
Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.
Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.
Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.
Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.


Manufactured Weapons: Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat- in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

The only way I can see to justify gaining iterative attacks with natural weapons is if one ruled that unarmed strikes count as Manufactured Weapons and that one can make these unarmed attacks using one's natural weapons. I am also unclear on how using unarmed strikes to get iterative attacks with natural weapons would interact with TWF or Multiattack.

 

[reapersaurus]

I liked that synopsis, jgsugden.

The only thing you didn't mention is that by the rules of 3.5, a creature with natural attacks that is able to weild a manufactured weapon (i.e. a Druid in Bear Form using a sword, AFAIK) can weild the sword as a primary weapon, gaining all iterative attacks, and also use his natural attacks minus the claw that is holding the sword.
Look at the Manufactured Weapons section of the SRD for this.

Nail - Alter Self's "Extra limbs" quote is for limbs beyond 'normal' - like a Mutant Sahuagin. If you Alter Self into a Lizardman, you DO gain the natural attacks (claw/claw/bite).

 

[reapersaurus]

The only way I can see to justify gaining iterative attacks with natural weapons is if one ruled that unarmed strikes count as Manufactured Weapons and that one can make these unarmed attacks using one's natural weapons. I am also unclear on how using unarmed strikes to get iterative attacks with natural weapons would interact with TWF or Multiattack.

And here comes Camarath with the rules cites!
Good job, Cam - I don't like copy-pasting that all the time these come up.
This subject should be a sticky in the Rules Forum, cause I think I've seen 5 threads the past 2 weeks alone.

Cam - the animal form also being a monk (or is it only having Improved Unarmed Strike?) goes a long way towards justifying that natural weapons = unarmed strikes = manufactured weapons.

TWF doesn't work with unarmed strikes (from monk).
How is MultiAttack a problem? Did you mean MultiWeapon Fighting?

 

[Nail]

This is a very clear and easily understood summary! Thank you....it seems that it should work pretty well.....

Of course, I am only a player and Nail is our DM, so he gets to make the final decision as to what way to go.

Bah! Being a DM has no bearing on this case!


Thanks for the summary, jgsugden! I believe the "bonus feats" part of what you wrote is slightly mistaken; that is only feats marked with a superscript "B" are considered the bonus feats. The feat for the rat, weapon finesse, is not so marked; it's just the feat the rat gets for having one HD.

reapersaurus, where'd you get that rules passage from?

 

[DM2]

Thanks for helping clear up the rules. I hadn't read (or read thoroughly) the section on combining natural and armed attacks, but it makes sense now.

Surprise for me is that the ubiquitous Troglodyte form is even more powerful than the +6 natural armor bonus alone made me think.

For example: 8th level bard in troglodyte form gets, aside from +6 to AC, extra attacks from the natural weapons AND use of the multiweapon fighting racial bonus feat.

So, if that 8th level bard with a +3 strength bonus and a non-magical longsword (for instance) assumes trog form, his attacks move to:

Longsword +9/+4 (1d8+3) and claw +7 (1d4+1) and bite +7 (1d4+1)

Not an overpowering example, but it certainly doesn't hurt to get a couple of extra attacks at something very close to your full attack bonus!

DM2

 

[DM2]

Many people have issues with wildshape. Polymorph seems to be unclear to most players. As a result, there are dozens of interpretations for how it should be played. These interpretations have been popping up on message boards all over. If it frustrates you, PLEASE follow the instructions on the 3.5 PHB errata sheet and request clarification on how polymorph works from custserv@wizards.com.

<great summary snipped>

jgsugden,

Great post. Also, I saw your valiant attempt to solicit answers to all of the various polymorph/wildshape questions that have dogged us for weeks in Andy's rules message board.

Too bad he laid the smackdown on you with his new dislike of specific rules questions

DM2