Wow, do I not understand Wildshape....

[reapersaurus]

Too bad he laid the smackdown on you with his new dislike of specific rules questions

Are you SERIOUS?

What the crap does he think his job IS?
D&D is a rulebook product.
He doesn't want to answer rules questions?
THE leading guy in 3.5, doesn't want to clarify the main aspect of the product he's selling?

 

[DrSpunj]

I liked that synopsis, jgsugden.

The only thing you didn't mention is that by the rules of 3.5, a creature with natural attacks that is able to weild a manufactured weapon (i.e. a Druid in Bear Form using a sword, AFAIK) can weild the sword as a primary weapon, gaining all iterative attacks, and also use his natural attacks minus the claw that is holding the sword.
Look at the Manufactured Weapons section of the SRD for this.

Looking at this part of what Camarath quoted:

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

I read the above section and take it to mean that if your Druid wields a sword it would use it's full base attack for the sword attack and then get one claw attack and a bite attack, both at -5. But I don't see where iterative attacks with the sword are supported. Is it spelled out more clearly somewhere else?

Thanks.

DrSpunj

EDIT: Corrected 2nd claw attack modifier

 

[jgsugden]

Cite? I've been reading both WotC's and Andy's boards and I don't remember any such posts by Andy.

http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm12.showMessage?topicID=214.topic

 

[jgsugden]

Thanks for the summary, jgsugden! I believe the "bonus feats" part of what you wrote is slightly mistaken; that is only feats marked with a superscript "B" are considered the bonus feats. The feat for the rat, weapon finesse, is not so marked; it's just the feat the rat gets for having one HD.

No problem. I am highly interested in this issue as I run a game based around druids and I roleplay in different campaigns with a total of over 20 druids involved.

In my 3.5 MM (pg 64), the little b is present next to the Weapon Finesse Feat in the Dire Rat description.

 

[Camarath]

And here comes Camarath with the rules cites!
Good job, Cam - I don't like copy-pasting that all the time these come up.
This subject should be a sticky in the Rules Forum, cause I think I've seen 5 threads the past 2 weeks alone.

I think it is a good idea if one of these theards was made sticky at least for a while. I also think that if these rules were in the combat section of the SRD and PBH this would not be such an issue but as it is I think many people miss these rules in the Types, Subtypes, and Special Abilities section of the SRD and MM.

Cam - the animal form also being a monk (or is it only having Improved Unarmed Strike?) goes a long way towards justifying that natural weapons = unarmed strikes = manufactured weapons.

I am not clear on whether one can use Natural Weapons when making Monk Unarmed Strikes. I way mainly going off the Unarmed Attack Action in the combat section which seems to say that one can use Natural Weapons when taking that action. And I believe that one can take iterative attacks when making unarmed attacks in a Full Attack Action. That would let you get iterative attacks with a Natural Weapon.

TWF doesn't work with unarmed strikes (from monk).
How is MultiAttack a problem? Did you mean MultiWeapon Fighting?

I meant MultiWeapon Fighting. While it is clear monks can not use TWF with their Unarmed Strikes, I don't think there are rules preventing non-Monks from using TWF and Unarmed Attacks unless I missed something and non-monk Unarmed Attacks count as non-theartening (with out IUS) Natural Weapons. If that is the case then one could argue that you could use TWF (ITWF and GTWF) with Natural Weapons using Unarmed Attacks. If one can use TWF what about MWF with potentialy 8 or 9 Natural Weapons. Also if one is using one's Natural Weapons as Manufactured Weapons one could also argue that one should still be able to use all one's Natural Weapons as Secondary Natural Weapons while using them a Manufactured Weapons with Unarmed Attacks and MultiWeapon Fighting.

 

[jgsugden]

Are you SERIOUS?

What the crap does he think his job IS?
D&D is a rulebook product.
He doesn't want to answer rules questions?
THE leading guy in 3.5, doesn't want to clarify the main aspect of the product he's selling?

His job is to design. He makes the rules. Other people are in charge of making sure they are followed. I wouldn't say that he 'laid the smack down' on me, but he is entitled to compeltely disregard questions. WotC is not required to support their product in any way. These are things they do because it is in their best interest, not because it is required.

I was curious, so I looked up how many rules questions Andy answered on his site and the WotC site since the beginning of July. I gave up once my mind was thoroughly boggled. He has gone above and beyond the call of dutyt. He owes us nothing. His job is to design. His ideas vastly improved 3.5. There are problems, but it is not part of his job to fix them. We're supposed to direct those to custserv@wizards.com.

It is just unfortunate that custserv@wizards.com has failed to meet expectations in this regard.

 

[DrSpunj]

I believe the "bonus feats" part of what you wrote is slightly mistaken; that is only feats marked with a superscript "B" are considered the bonus feats. The feat for the rat, weapon finesse, is not so marked; it's just the feat the rat gets for having one HD.

The first part of that paragraph is talking about wildshaping into a Dire rat, which does gain Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

DrSpunj

 

[Iku Rex]

http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm12.showMessage?topicID=214.topic

Thanks. Looks like I need to drop by more often.

Look at his replies though: "Not gaining supernatural or spell-like abilities" trumps "gaining traits of the creature whose form you assume."

... and in the very same sentence as the one stating that you don't gain supernatural or spell-like abilities it says that you don't get extraordinary special qualities. Like, oh, plant traits... Sigh.

And his other answers are also vague. "Looks right at a glance." "Looks reasonable to me." Bah. Coward.

(I have a polymorph thread on that board from a few months back - http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm12.showMessage?topicID=160.topic - if you're interested. )

 

[Nail]

Looking at this part of what Camarath quoted:
I read the above section and take it to mean that if your Druid wields a sword it would use it's full base attack for the sword attack and then get one claw attack and a bite attack, both at -5. But I don't see where iterative attacks with the sword are supported. Is it spelled out more clearly somewhere else?

That's the way I would take it too.

Maybe the minotaur example in the MM would help? I'll bet it does.......

 

[jgsugden]

... and in the very same sentence as the one stating that you don't gain supernatural or spell-like abilities it says that you don't get extraordinary special qualities. Like, oh, plant traits... Sigh.

And his other answers are also vague. "Looks right at a glance." "Looks reasonable to me." Bah. Coward.

Don't bash Andy. He has done way too much for us gamers. Customer service is not his job. His job is to design.

As for the 'plant traits' being listed under extraordinary qualities: It is redundant. You already know that the creature has plant traits because it is a plant. It is probably just there as a reminder.

Polymorph gives you the type of the creature, including the traits. Then, it gives you the extraordinary attacks, but not the extra ordinary qualities. Does it matter that it is specifically not giving you the 'plant traits' for a second time? No. You already have them from adopting the type.

As for the spell-like and supernatural traits of subtypes: That is only a consideration when you have a polymorphing outsider. There are few of those floating around.