WoW Imitates 4e?

[cignus_pfaccari]

To clarify a bit, Diablo II had skill trees, which WoW's current talent system is a clear descendant of.

If I recall correctly, the Diablo box RPG was the first place where we found what'd become D&D 3e's feats.

Also, the MoP talent system looks very much like the Diablo 3 skill tree, which also has the "fewer but much more meaningful choices" thing going. The difference is with the WoW trees, you can't go back and pick a lower-level talent that you think might be useful now, whereas you're free to take a level 2 power for a level 29 slot in Diablo 3.

Just as in 4e, selecting a particular encounter at level 1 doesn't lock you out of other options later on, and no later options have pre-requisites of specific choices.

Honestly, the spells/abilities are more like the 4e powers...except they predate 4e itself. Talents are more analogous to feats or optional class abilities, really, but there isn't a good match.

Brad

 

[TheAuldGrump]

It's gonna be pretty hilarious to see trolls claiming 4e is copying WoW with the powers system. I mean, I might have to go to the WotC boards to see it, but I do fully expect to.

Nar, if I were inclined to that kind of snark I would say 'turnabout is fair play' or the like.

'Struth is that the borrowing goes both ways, and has since late 2nd edition, at the least. WoW adding something like this only sounds like a good thing to me.

The Auld Grump

 

[Pentius]

Nar, if I were inclined to that kind of snark I would say 'turnabout is fair play' or the like.

'Struth is that the borrowing goes both ways, and has since late 2nd edition, at the least. WoW adding something like this only sounds like a good thing to me.

The Auld Grump

I'd put the earliest sign of trading back and forth between video games and D&D to Final Fantasy 1, myself(or at least, that's the earliest one I can think of. I remember starting it up and thinking I was pretty much playing a computerized version of a 1e campaign.

Ah, I love that game.

 

[avin]

One thing Wow could have copied from D&D is Deepholm npcs personality: slow, dour and stubborn.

Direct from Planescape Campaign Setting:

"Then there are the denizens of the plane. Perhaps they’ve absorbed too much of their surroundings, because their natures are slow, dour, and stubborn. More bizarre than most planars, the elementals of Earth share little in appearance or sympathies with any save perhaps the most obsessed dwarves. Earth and digging are all these denizens seem to care for."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Whatever WoW is becoming, it seems to be developing things that will cater to people who like the Korean/Chinese MMOs. The new Tyreal-styled mount is very reminiscent of the style of Aion.

It's reminiscent of NPCs in Diablo I and Diablo II, since that's what it's supposed to be, both of which predate Aion by years.

Also, what I've seen of the previews of the Pandaren and their new starting area, that's a pull for more kids/casual players...

People have been insane for Pandaren since Warcraft III.

Other changes, going now to level 90 (more of the same type of questing we've seen, for sure) and yet intending to nerf world flight until you hit lvl 90, I don't think that will go over all that well. Leveling in Cataclysm was a definite slog, I gave up on several toons around 82-83, so I can't imagine 5 more levels of that slowness toward 90. I got two toons to 85, I think, and then unsubscribed.

This is the first time I've seen someone complain that there was too much leveling content in Cataclysm. When the five-level increase appeared on the screen at Blizzcon, there was very definite grumbling in the audience around me.

And the audience erupted with applause at the news flight would go back to how it was in Outland and Northrend when those were the current expansions.

I want to feel excited about the changes, but it's going to be ... what... maybe another 8 months to 1 year or so before the expansion comes out? Do we know?

We don't, but all of the art assets are done, the newbie zone (the back of a giant turtle) is done, and there's been a first pass on talents of every class. I've been in the alpha or beta for each era of WoW, and this is the furthest along they've ever been at this point. I'd bet on beta early in 2012 and the game being released in late spring or early summer.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Not really. It reminds me of the Diablo games, also by Blizzard, which used that sort of scheme well before 4e. It isn't like this wasn't already in Blizzard's bag of tricks.

And the Diablo II skill tree, which the WoW talent tree was based on, was explicitly them porting over the StarCraft tech tree.

Once Blizzard likes a concept, it's fair game for all their teams to use, as needed.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The most WoW-esque thing any of my groups has pointed out is the fairly rigid role mechanics for classes...there's a CLEAR DPS/Tank/Control/Heal analogue, one that wasn't always present in early D&D.

That actually came from EverQuest (the Controller type is pretty clearly based on EverQuest's all-but-essential Enchanter), which got it from DikuMUD before that. (It's also present in every other EQ-derivative, like City of Heroes and Dark Age of Camelot.)

But honestly, for all the gnashing of teeth about 4E's roles (and I say this as a non-4E player), every successful D&D group I've ever seen has always been cognizant of "we need a big guy to soak the hits, we need a healer, and we need some people to kick a lot of ass." Were there groups that featured three thieves, a fighter, a ranger and a samurai? Yep, and they usually got wiped out on the second level of a dungeon and the next set of characters were much more traditional in their class spread.

WotC explicitly saying "guys, you need to fill these roles in a dungeon-crawling group" was mostly about helping the really bad players figure out the game and to help the designers make more productive decisions.

Blizzard folks are CLEARLY D&D players, so its a nice little mechanical feedback loop.

If you ever see photos or videos of their offices, you can see D&D and other RPG books on their shelves, and they run games in their conference rooms during lunch and after work. And much of Azeroth started off as parts of various employees' D&D games.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'd put the earliest sign of trading back and forth between video games and D&D to Final Fantasy 1, myself(or at least, that's the earliest one I can think of. I remember starting it up and thinking I was pretty much playing a computerized version of a 1e campaign.

Ah, I love that game.

Zork, Colossal Cave/Adventure, Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Ultima, Lords of Midnight and many others all predate Final Fantasy by years and years.

The earliest programmers of the personal computer era were D&D players and it shows in their games.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

One thing Wow could have copied from D&D is Deepholm npcs personality: slow, dour and stubborn.

If there's a DM who hasn't used that for at least a large portion of their earth elementals' personalities, I'd be surprised.

 

[nedjer]

How come they don't get Edition Wars?