D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

[HammerMan]

the best ranger(no optimization there )

So a 2nd level fighter 3rd level rouge going up the rest of the way as druid?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

All 4 Orc have the same positive racial adjustment.

The point is that cultural elements were hardcoded in the base race even though all 4 types make sense in any of the 4 settings

Basically PC Orcs are different from NPC Orcs and setting common tropes should not greatly affect the roleplay and gameplay values of the PC versions of a race.

You should be able to play Guldan the PC Orc Warlock and not take a massive gameplay hit for playing an interesting character because the game assumes all nonhexblade warlocks had CHA 16 at level 1.

The game is robust enough to have a very effective cha 14 warlock.
I actually like playing differently optimized characters. I can perfectly see a 16 Str (half) Orc warlock.
I think that argument distracts from the reason why racial ability modifiers are not bringing a lot to the table, +1/+2 is not enough to work with.

 

[Scribe]

Now the real question is at what point is it "close enough?" does the 12 prime stat and 16 play close? does the 14 prime stat and 16 prime stat play close

It's a great question, and reflects the impossibility of actual balance in a game where stats can be generated via random roll, point buy, or array.

I remain unconvinced that the game is 'balanced' with an expectation of minmax.

 

[HammerMan]

It's a great question, and reflects the impossibility of actual balance in a game where stats can be generated via random roll, point buy, or array.

I remain unconvinced that the game is 'balanced' with an expectation of minmax.

i doubt it is balanced with true min max... that would be huge power builds and any casual player (16 or 14 or even 18 in prime stat) would get dropped like it was a Tomb of Horrors campaign everytime an Orc came onto the field... true Minmax has HUGE power plays even in balanced games.

I also don't think 16+ prime stat and 12+ con is that much min maxed... maybe you do, but really this is the most basic level of play I think.

I also think that balanced around 16+prime stat 12+ con (and maybe for some classes 14+ secondary stat) means that a fighter with a 15 Str is only a little behind and will be fine. A fighter with an 11 con may have some issue but wont be unplayable... a fighter with a 14 or less str and an 8 con is a "going to be rerolling soon anyway" most likely unless A) someone else can pick up the slack or B)the DM has super kid gloves on.

 

[Scribe]

i doubt it is balanced with true min max... that would be huge power builds and any casual player (16 or 14 or even 18 in prime stat) would get dropped like it was a Tomb of Horrors campaign everytime an Orc came onto the field... true Minmax has HUGE power plays even in balanced games.

I also don't think 16+ prime stat and 12+ con is that much min maxed... maybe you do, but really this is the most basic level of play I think.

I also think that balanced around 16+prime stat 12+ con (and maybe for some classes 14+ secondary stat) means that a fighter with a 15 Str is only a little behind and will be fine. A fighter with an 11 con may have some issue but wont be unplayable... a fighter with a 14 or less str and an 8 con is a "going to be rerolling soon anyway" most likely unless A) someone else can pick up the slack or B)the DM has super kid gloves on.

If I had to guess, it would be 'balanced' around 14 in the primary.

People then assume 16 is required because it makes the game easier.

 

[HammerMan]

If I had to guess, it would be 'balanced' around 14 in the primary.

People then assume 16 is required because it makes the game easier.

Okay, I'll bite, what make you think that (and no this isn't me being snarky or this being a trap, I generally would love you hear your theory on this in more detail)

I have never really crunched any numbers myself, I have only gone by the power gamers and math wiz's I know IRL and the conversation here on this board. SO you may be right, but i have heard 16+ so many times it kind of stuck (and lets not forget if you repeat a lie often enough you will get people to believe it, once that happens they repeat it without lying and then it become 'common knowledge')

 

[Scribe]

Okay, I'll bite, what make you think that (and no this isn't me being snarky or this being a trap, I generally would love you hear your theory on this in more detail)

I have never really crunched any numbers myself, I have only gone by the power gamers and math wiz's I know IRL and the conversation here on this board. SO you may be right, but i have heard 16+ so many times it kind of stuck (and lets not forget if you repeat a lie often enough you will get people to believe it, once that happens they repeat it without lying and then it become 'common knowledge')

Just a guess/hunch.

If a game is balanced around optimal lines, it often is too difficult for casuals.

A DM can tweak this via encounter updates, magic items, or NPC behavior.

Does your party have healing?
Does your party have ranged damage?
Does your party have buffs?
Etc, etc, etc.

So really it's just a guess, but in all my decades of gaming, I find it difficult to believe +2 isn't good enough, but +3 is the point where the game is balanced.

 

[Minigiant]

I think that argument distracts from the reason why racial ability modifiers are not bringing a lot to the table, +1/+2 is not enough to work with.

Well that's something I mentioned before.

The 5e array is too low and the racial bonus is too low. So you both get little leeway and overemphasis of that little bit.

 

[HammerMan]

Just a guess/hunch.

If a game is balanced around optimal lines, it often is too difficult for casuals.

A DM can tweak this via encounter updates, magic items, or NPC behavior.

Does your party have healing?
Does your party have ranged damage?
Does your party have buffs?
Etc, etc, etc.

So really it's just a guess, but in all my decades of gaming, I find it difficult to believe +2 isn't good enough, but +3 is the point where the game is balanced.

okay, so I think I will take the math guys over the 'gut feeling' guy, no offense.

 

[Scribe]

okay, so I think I will take the math guys over the 'gut feeling' guy, no offense.

Totally fair, get them to post the math so I don't have to confirm or refute my hunch.