D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

[Scribe]

See, this is where I end up losing the conversation. A lot of discussion about Racial ASIs is that they "encourage" archettypes. Like playing an Orc Barbarian. And then we seem to have two different view points that constantly shift.

Either playing an Orc Barbarian is more powerful than the average, and playing an Orc Warlock is average or Playing an Orc Warlock is weaker to represent a higher challenge and playing an Orc Barbarian is normal. No one ever seems to disagree on their relative position, but I've seen a lot of people put forth the idea that 16 is somehow more powerful than average when I find that position to not follow from the evidence we have.

There is no presentation of 'average'.

There is:

What is my Class.
What is my builds Primary.
What are my desired secondary stats.
What optional rules do I get to use.

Many (most?) don't consider an average.

'I put my 15 in my Prime Stat, and my +2 as well.'

There's no thinking, no choice, no cost/restriction/balance.

You make the game as easy as possible for yourself.

Averages, are as meaningless as Balance.

 

[Minigiant]

To be fair, BECMI also had a unified modifier system.

The issue really isn't the mechanic.

It's the mechanic, how it is used, how it is taught, and how it is thought about all being 4 different things.

The removal of racial ability adjustments and the possibility of losing subraces is just WOTC trying to unify things.

Of course you can't unify in 4 directions. So if you have a preference, there are at leasr 3 directions you don't prefer.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Aaaaaaand none of that matters, because they are all separate races in all editions. Especially 5e that, once again, has.................no.............planetouched....................category.

Unless you can defeat those facts, why even bother with other stuff? You're just spinning your wheels on a bunch of irrelevancies.

So, they were grouped together in 3.5 and likely 2e for planescape. But that doesn't matter.

And dwarves having ambassadors doesn't matter because planetouched aren't a category.
And IRL science not necessarily being real in Fantasy worlds doesn't matter because planetouched aren't a category.

Odd how suddenly, for the third time, you completely abandon your position and refuse to respond to mine. Because you still haven't addressed how, for example, a Human-Based Teifling could be seen as being genetically related to humans and therefore a subrace of humans. An example I gave pages ago to address your concerns about genetics, concerns that seem to no longer matter because planetouched aren't a category.

 

[Minigiant]

There is no presentation of 'average'.

There is:

What is my Class.
What is my builds Primary.
What are my desired secondary stats.
What optional rules do I get to use.

Many (most?) don't consider an average.

'I put my 15 in my Prime Stat, and my +2 as well.'

There's no thinking, no choice, no cost/restriction/balance.

You make the game as easy as possible for yourself.

Averages, are as meaningless as Balance.

WOTC portrayed same class and race focus as average via the pregens and the character creation explanation.

Now it was for the +1. +1 for race was average to make humans average at all races it you put the 15 and +1 in your class primary.

Human Fighter and High Elf Wizard was the average.

 

[Chaosmancer]

well I agree WoTC messed up (and I want to see it rectified) I don't think it is because player have 16 str/wis/cha I think it is because monsters stink. Becuse if the answer was "Just raise AC" I would have done that years ago now.

The problem is, if you rase the AC by a small amount you do not increase the fun in the encounter, you just make it longer. Same with giving more HP.

I can max the HP on my orcs and upgrade all there armor, or give them a 'blessing of war +1 AC and +2 damage' none of that helps make the encounter more fun.

Mythic makes the fight longer (although I play with when it activates at 0 or bloodied or what ever) but it also introduces new actions.
Legendary helps with lock downs and does make fights longer but it also gives more actions.

If I give a warrior 'boss' 3 legendary actions each named something cool, and only use them to spread out what is happening (even something as simple as a super/double jump that doesn't provoke to move the fight) eengages the players more

Exactly. If the issue of 5e being "too easy" was as easily resolved as starting with a 14 instead of a 16, then giving a monster +1 to all AC and saves would solve it.

The bigger issue comes with combats not being dynamic or dramatic in the action. The resolution can feel dramatic, "did that fireball kill us?" type of questions, but the actions you take and the actions of the enemy often don't feel inherently dramatic. Hopefully the new monster tweaks help with this issue.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Have you been paying attention to all the LU threads and looked at all the monsters? Because yes, they have new actions. Here's the green dragon they teased us back in March.

I've been on the fence about Levelup... but I might have seriously consider this.

 

[Bolares]

I've been on the fence about Levelup... but I might have seriously consider this.

I'm not interested in "advanced" player options and game rules, but more complex/action diverse monsters.... that would be my jam

 

[Zubatcarteira]

When I started playing I was really confused on how the subraces worked, if they added onto the base race or just replaced everything, probably because I mostly skimmed the PHB. Maybe they'll add the whole race description in supplementary materials to make things simpler.

 

[Scribe]

Now it was for the +1. +1 for race was average to make humans average at all races it you put the 15 and +1 in your class primary.

Human Fighter and High Elf Wizard was the average

Average, will have examples higher, and lower.

What is presented by Wizards is not an average, it would be a recommendation, a suggestion.

It would also be logical to make it as simple as possible, for pre-gens, and also very effective, for new players to jump in and have success with.

Ultimately none of this speaks to any fundamental, mathematical truth, which says 16 is required.

Because it is not.

 

[Maxperson]

So, they were grouped together in 3.5 and likely 2e for planescape. But that doesn't matter.

Correct. It doesn't matter, because they were not grouped together as a singular race.

And dwarves having ambassadors doesn't matter because planetouched aren't a category.

Also correct.

And IRL science not necessarily being real in Fantasy worlds doesn't matter because planetouched aren't a category.

Incorrect! In so far as your statement that they are not a category. That's all they were.

Because you still haven't addressed how, for example, a Human-Based Teifling could be seen as being genetically related to humans and therefore a subrace of humans.

Why would I address something that isn't true. They are not a subrace of humans. Their lower planar differences are significant enough to make them a singular and independent race. Like how half-elves are not a subrace of both humans and elves.