Wraithstrike balance evaluation examples

[Mort]

Indeed, that is the heart of this debate from my perspective as well, that many things appear overpowered on paper but turn out to not be overpowered in common use. I think that was the debate over the Warlock and Mystic Theurge when those classes were first released as well (though those debates seem to have died down).

And I am fine with that. In fact, I think it is the heart of most debates I have had with you Infiniti2K. Nothing wrong with that, and I appreciate your perspective on that issue, I think we just disagree about theory vs. use.

It's absolutely true that some things appear much more powerful on paper than in practice - mystic theurge and warlock being prime examples. The key however, is people use them in practice and realise they're ok or even a bit weak. For example, I'll add warblade to the list. Everyone kept griping about it, but I had a PC use it in practice and, well, it was underwhelming.

You seem to keep ignoring, however, that most people in this thread are not saying "powerful on paper" they are saying "overly powerful in practice" after having allowed the spell into their game.
Once you have a significant number of people saying "I allowed it in and it caused a problem," then your criteria of allow it and see what happens has been met. So sure, allow it if you like but don't be surprised if it causes a problem.

 

[Mort]

overpowering scortching ray

BTW since people seem interested. Here is a build showing an "overpowered" scorching ray. Note it took 20 levels, 2 prestige classes, 4-5 metamagic feats and a metamagic rod - and after all that it's big once to twice per day.

 

[Mistwell]

You seem to keep ignoring, however, that most people in this thread are not saying "powerful on paper" they are saying "overly powerful in practice" after having allowed the spell into their game.

Once you have a significant number of people saying "I allowed it in and it caused a problem," then your criteria of allow it and see what happens has been met. So sure, allow it if you like but don't be surprised if it causes a problem.

I am not ignoring that fact, because it doesn't seem to be true. When asked, only a small handfull said they actually used the spell for more than one game. Most said they banned it outright before ever using it, or used in in one battle or one game.

There is a reason I keep saying that people should use it AND GIVE IT A FAIR CHANCE, like more than one game, and more than one senario. I've been responding to people who never even tried the spell for over a week now. MOST responses are from people who never gave the spell a fair chance in game, because they admit they banned it based on what they read, or their theoretical analysis, or a single battle, or a single game.

 

[Mistwell]

BTW since people seem interested. Here is a build showing an "overpowered" scorching ray. Note it took 20 levels, 2 prestige classes, 4-5 metamagic feats and a metamagic rod - and after all that it's big once to twice per day.

Aw come on now...you can make an Incantatrix at level 10-12 that can do HUGE damage with the spell (and there are a couple of other builds as well). You CAN drag it out to 20 levels, much like people have posted 20 levels for wratihstrike. But you receive huge benefits at right around the same level as the Wraithstrike builds.

But really, this is a different thread we are talking about, and it should be it's own thread if people want to see a scorching ray build.

 

[wildstarsreach]

From these threads, the only conclusion that I has that I have come about wraithstrike, it is either the wrong level or as one of my DM's and I have talked about is that while under the effect of this spell, you have no strength score. That would mean that you could not add strength or power attack damage. This is especially made evident from the thread about DR. Since this attack also bypasses DR as a touch attack like a wraith which has no strength score, why should PA and strength be added? It shouldn't!!!!!!

 

[wildstarsreach]

I am not ignoring that fact, because it doesn't seem to be true. When asked, only a small handfull said they actually used the spell for more than one game. Most said they banned it outright before ever using it, or used in in one battle or one game.

There is a reason I keep saying that people should use it AND GIVE IT A FAIR CHANCE, like more than one game, and more than one senario. I've been responding to people who never even tried the spell for over a week now. MOST responses are from people who never gave the spell a fair chance in game, because they admit they banned it based on what they read, or their theoretical analysis, or a single battle, or a single game.

Here is something to consider. The closest equivalent.

True Strike. 1st level, stand action, next attack, +20 to attack, ignores miss chance. This spell companion attack is subject to DR if itd attack was melee/ranged attacks with weapons and not spells.

Wraithstrike. 2nd level, swift action, all attacks that round, anything from 0 to +60? since it changes attacks to touch attacks. As touch attacks, this spells affect bypasses DR.

A quickened true strike would be 5th level. A second level spell if extended for this affect a second attack or seventh level spell for persistant spell to make this last all day.

This spell should be at least 5th if not sixth which is what my original thread started. Looking at comparable power levels of spells should be the gage for allowing spells or not. Wraithstrike is not a fairly balanced spell from this perspective. From levels 9-20, it is easy to abuse by focused melee spellcasters.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Extending or Persisting True Strike would be worthless, since it calls out that it only works for your next attack. A persistant True Strike would let you prebuff yourself to get a single +20 on your next attack any time that day (but only if the GM was being generous, since the text of the spell calls out that it has to be made within the round above and beyond the Duration), but after that it would go away forever.

 

[Heckler]

Here is something to consider. The closest equivalent.

True Strike. 1st level, stand action, next attack, +20 to attack, ignores miss chance. This spell companion attack is subject to DR if itd attack was melee/ranged attacks with weapons and not spells.

Wraithstrike. 2nd level, swift action, all attacks that round, anything from 0 to +60? since it changes attacks to touch attacks. As touch attacks, this spells affect bypasses DR.

A quickened true strike would be 5th level. A second level spell if extended for this affect a second attack or seventh level spell for persistant spell to make this last all day.

This spell should be at least 5th if not sixth which is what my original thread started. Looking at comparable power levels of spells should be the gage for allowing spells or not. Wraithstrike is not a fairly balanced spell from this perspective. From levels 9-20, it is easy to abuse by focused melee spellcasters.

Now, compare it to another spell that closely resembles it: Ghostform.

You gain:

Incorporeal subtype
Can only be harmed by other incorps and other "magic" attacks
Most of these attacks also have a 50% miss chance
Your attacks in this form mimic Wraithstrike, except that you have a 50% miss chance
Said miss chance can be ignored by simply using a Ghost Touch weapon
Add CHA to AC
You can walk through walls
You can pass through and function in water without penalty
You cannot fall
You cannot be tripped or grappled
You cannot set off traps that are triggered by weight
You cannot be heard with listen checks
You apply DEX to melee attacks
Nonvisual senses are less effective against you
You have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when you cannot see

This spell lasts for 1 round per level.

This is an eighth level spell.

Wraithstrike doesn't even come close to what this spell can do.

At most, I could see making WS third level, but no higher. Any higher puts it too close to Ghostform.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Don't forget that Ghostform makes you have Str --. That is critical, since you lose +Damage from Strength and all feats that require a certain Strength (like Power Attack). If Wraithstrike did that too, it wouldn't be such an issue.

 

[Heckler]

True, but that damage can be made up other ways; Gr. Magic Weapon, Gr. Mighty Wallop, various "burst" qualities, etc.