Wraithstrike balance evaluation examples

[Iku Rex]

Continued from http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=184454&page=6 .

In the above thread I promised to post a few example builds with average damage calculations. I finally got around to making the average damage spreadsheet I asked about. I based it on the one from ENWorld's download section, but rather than try to unwind the calculation code I made my own. It seems to be working correctly. If there's any interest I may try to "clean it up", add some explanations, and make it available to others.

I keep changing my mind with regards to the best characters to showcase wraithstrike, so I'll just start with one build and then I can post more as inspiration strikes and/or based on comments and requests I may get after this one.

Holy Arcane Warrior
Core + Complete used

Human Paladin 4/Sorc 2 /Abjurant Champion (CMag) 5/Spellsword (CWar) 1 (lv12)

(Variant: Fighter4/Focused Specialist (CMag) 2... for a wizard based build. No divine grace from paladin and no Divine Might feat, but more feats and more skill points due to higher Int.)

25 pb

	Levels	Item	Total 
Str 14		+4	18 (+4)
Dex 12 		+2	14 (+2)
Con 14		+2	16 (+3)
Int 8			 8 (-1)
Wis 12			12 (+1)	
Cha 13	+3	+2	18 (+4)

Feats (1,1,3,6,9,12): Power Attack, Combat Casting, Improved Toughness (CWar), Somatic Weaponry (CMag 47), Divine Might (CWar), Arcane Strike (CWar)

(Variant: Arcane Preparation [CArc] and Extend Spell for Extended wraithstrikes.)

Weasel Familiar

Spells known:
4th (4/day, 1 known): Heart of Earth (CMag)
3rd (6/day, 2 known): Haste, Heroism
2nd (7/day, 3 known): Wraithstrike (CAdv, SC), Alter Self, See Invisibility
1st (7/day, 5 known): Shield, Enlarge Person, Swift Expeditious Retreat (CAdv), Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement

Equipment (88000 max):
4000 Amulet of Health +2
11350 +1 keen adamantine falchion
6000 Ring of Enduring Arcana (CMag)
4100 Armbands of Might (CAdv)
16000 Belt of Strength +4
4000 Cloak of Charisma +2
10100 +3 Mithral Chain Shirt
5000 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
4000 Gloves of Dexterity +2
9000 Vest of Resistance +3 (CArc)
8000 Ring of Protection +2

6450 left

Combat: Will usually cast heart of stone, heroism and alter self before battle.
Casts haste and shield in first round (swift shield thanks to abjurant champion).

No holds barred option:

AB:
+11 BAB
+4 Strength
+2 heroism spell
+1 haste spell
+1 enhancement weapon
-11 Power Attack
+4 Arcane Strike 4th level spell.
= +12/+12/+7/+2

Damage:
2d4 weapon
+6 Str
+1 enhancement weapon
+22 Power Attack
+2 armbands of might
+4 Divine Might
(+4d4 Arcane Strike)
= 2d4+35+4d4, 15-20/2x

AC:
10 base
+2 Dex
+6 troglodyte
+7 armor
+9 shield spell
+1 haste
+1 ioun stone
+2 ring of protection
= AC 38

Saves (fort/ref/will):
4/1/1 paladin
0/0/3/ sorcerer
1/1/4 abjurant champion
2/0/2 spellsword
4/4/4 divine grace
2/2/2 heroism
3/3/3 vest of resistance
3/2/1 ability scores
0/2/0 familiar
---
Fort +19, Ref +15, Will +20

Average hit points: 10 + 3d10 (Pal) + 2d4 (Sorc) + 5d10 (AC) + d8 (SS) + 12*3 (Con) +12 (ImpTough)= 111 hit points (+22 temporary from heart of earth)

Average damage per attack and per round:

AC	1	2	3	4	5	Total
6	58,90	58,90	58,90	52,70	0,00	229,40
7	58,90	58,90	58,90	49,60	0,00	226,30
8	58,90	58,90	58,90	46,50	0,00	223,20
9	58,90	58,90	58,90	43,40	0,00	220,10
10	58,90	58,90	55,80	40,30	0,00	213,90
11	58,90	58,90	52,70	37,20	0,00	207,70
12	58,90	58,90	49,60	34,10	0,00	201,50
13	58,90	58,90	46,50	31,00	0,00	195,30
14	58,90	58,90	43,40	27,90	0,00	189,10
15	55,80	55,80	40,30	24,80	0,00	176,70
16	52,70	52,70	37,20	21,70	0,00	164,30
17	49,60	49,60	34,10	18,60	0,00	151,90
18	46,50	46,50	31,00	15,50	0,00	139,50
19	43,40	43,40	27,90	12,40	0,00	127,10
20	40,30	40,30	24,80	9,30	0,00	114,70
21	37,20	37,20	21,70	6,20	0,00	102,30
22	34,10	34,10	18,60	3,10	0,00	89,90
23	31,00	31,00	15,50	3,10	0,00	80,60
24	27,90	27,90	12,40	3,10	0,00	71,30
25	24,80	24,80	9,30	3,10	0,00	62,00
26	21,70	21,70	6,20	3,10	0,00	52,70
27	18,60	18,60	3,10	3,10	0,00	43,40
28	15,00	15,00	3,00	3,00	0,00	36,00
29	11,60	11,60	2,90	2,90	0,00	29,00
30	8,40	8,40	2,80	2,80	0,00	22,40
31	5,40	5,40	2,70	2,70	0,00	16,20
32	2,60	2,60	2,60	2,60	0,00	10,40
33	2,60	2,60	2,60	2,60	0,00	10,40
34	2,60	2,60	2,60	2,60	0,00	10,40
35	2,60	2,60	2,60	2,60	0,00	10,40
36	2,60	2,60	2,60	2,60	0,00	10,40

Some examples:

CR 16 Old Black Dragon. AC 32, touch AC 8.

With wraithstrike: 223 average damage.
Without wraithstrike: 10 average damage.

Now that's not really fair, since -11 PA isn't optimal without wraithstrike. Make it -2 PA (to use the armbands). +9 on attacks and -18 on damage.

6	36,67	36,67	36,67	36,67	0,00	146,68
7	36,67	36,67	36,67	36,67	0,00	146,68
8	36,67	36,67	36,67	36,67	0,00	146,68
9	36,67	36,67	36,67	36,67	0,00	146,68
10	36,67	36,67	36,67	36,67	0,00	146,68
11	36,67	36,67	36,67	36,67	0,00	146,68
12	36,67	36,67	36,67	36,67	0,00	146,68
13	36,67	36,67	36,67	36,67	0,00	146,68
14	36,67	36,67	36,67	34,74	0,00	144,75
15	36,67	36,67	36,67	32,81	0,00	142,82
16	36,67	36,67	36,67	30,88	0,00	140,89
17	36,67	36,67	36,67	28,95	0,00	138,96
18	36,67	36,67	36,67	27,02	0,00	137,03
19	36,67	36,67	34,74	25,09	0,00	133,17
20	36,67	36,67	32,81	23,16	0,00	129,31
21	36,67	36,67	30,88	21,23	0,00	125,45
22	36,67	36,67	28,95	19,30	0,00	121,59
23	36,67	36,67	27,02	17,37	0,00	117,73
24	34,74	34,74	25,09	15,44	0,00	110,01
25	32,81	32,81	23,16	13,51	0,00	102,29
26	30,88	30,88	21,23	11,58	0,00	94,57
27	28,95	28,95	19,30	9,65	0,00	86,85
28	26,25	26,25	16,88	7,50	0,00	76,88
29	23,66	23,66	14,56	5,46	0,00	67,34
30	21,18	21,18	12,36	3,53	0,00	58,25
31	18,81	18,81	10,26	1,71	0,00	49,59
32	16,55	16,55	8,28	1,66	0,00	43,03
33	14,90	14,90	6,62	1,66	0,00	38,07
34	13,24	13,24	4,97	1,66	0,00	33,10
35	11,59	11,59	3,31	1,66	0,00	28,14
36	9,93	9,93	1,66	1,66	0,00	23,17

You still only get 43 damage against AC 32. Improvement: 180 damage.

Is it reasonable for a 2nd level spell to effectively add 180 damage as a swift action?

Some other examples:
CR 13 Storm Giant, AC 27, touch 10. With 214, without and -2 PA 87, improvement 127 damage.
CR 13 Iron Golem, AC 30, touch 8. With 180, without and -2 PA 53, improvement 127 damage. (Edit: I forgot the crit immunity. Fixed.)

Y'all can find more examples yourself. If you do, you'll find that a high AC and low touch AC is the rule rather than the exception for appropriate CR monsters. Creatures with DR favor wraithstrike, since it lets you crank up the Power Attack and still hit.

The use of Arcane Strike may seem "unfair", but keep in mind that wraithstrike is adding to an already effective tactic. If you don't use Arcae Strike the "effective" damage addition becomes 169-16 = 153 - still quite nice for a swift action 2nd level spell...

So - comments? Questions?

 

[RigaMortus2]

Is it reasonable for a 2nd level spell to effectively add 180 damage as a swift action?

Depends. What level is the character? I think a better question would be, Is it reasonable that an X level character is able to do 180 damage as a swift action"

After all, it's not JUST the spell that is doing the damage, it is a combination of weapon + modifiers + die rolls + positioning + other factors. If this were a 2nd level (swift action) direct damage spell that dealt 180 damage, then I could see your concern.

 

[Iku Rex]

Depends. What level is the character?

4+2+5+1=12.

I think a better question would be, Is it reasonable that an X level character is able to do 180 damage as a swift action"

With a 2nd level spell? No. Regardless of character level.

After all, it's not JUST the spell that is doing the damage, it is a combination of weapon + modifiers + die rolls + positioning + other factors. If this were a 2nd level (swift action) direct damage spell that dealt 180 damage, then I could see your concern.

The tactics used are perfectly viable without wraithstrike. The "unload everything" option requires a lot of resources, but 180 damage is what you get above and beyond what you'd get anyway.

 

[Nail]

Depends. What level is the character?

Errr?

I don't get this question. Iku Rex posted the entire character write-up, which includes the level!

 

[RigaMortus2]

Errr?

I don't get this question. Iku Rex posted the entire character write-up, which includes the level!

I should have been more specific... At what level (within those 12 character levels) does he think this becomes effective? Do we have to wait for all 12 levels? Will it become effective early on (like at 6th level)? Or must we wait the entire 12 levels to actually see any signs of "overpowered-ness"?

I guess this was answered though, seems like he feels it becomes overpowered at 12th level w/ this particular build.

 

[RigaMortus2]

With a 2nd level spell? No. Regardless of character level.

I measure how overpowered something is based on what level the character can do it at, and compare it to what similiar characters can do at that level.

I don't measure it based on the level each resource is.

So if someone can come up with a level 12 build that can hit the same AC and do similiar damage (w/o using Wraithstrike of course), would that be good enough to show that it isn't over powered? How many of these builds would it take? Just 1? 2? 10?

 

[RigaMortus2]

Some examples:

CR 16 Old Black Dragon. AC 32, touch AC 8.

With wraithstrike: 223 average damage.
Without wraithstrike: 10 average damage.

Some other examples:
CR 13 Storm Giant, AC 27, touch 10. With 214, without and -2 PA 87, improvement 127 damage.
CR 13 Iron Golem, AC 30, touch 8. With 223, without and -2 PA 58, improvement 165 damage.

Are we assuming that the Dragon in your example is stationary and not flying, let alone moving? Are we assuming that you always have the option to make a full round attack?

Are we also assuming the Storm Giant is stationary and not moving away to toss boulders at you? Or that the Storm Giant just won't grapple you? Again, are we assuming you are always getting a full round attack on him?

Are you calculating the 15/admantine damage reduction the Iron Golem gets? Iron Golems are the smartest of opponents, so you probably will do very good here. Played correctly, I can't picture/justify an Iron Golem using tactics to move away from you. Perhaps to use their breath weapon (if they want to hit you and your party members). But I can see them going in for a grapple, much like the Storm Giant, which will prevent you from attacking or casting w/o making the appropriate checks.

In theory, what you have written is great, but in practice, against non-stationary enemies who are NPCed at least half way decently, I don't see you doing that much damage.

 

[Votan]

CR 13 Storm Giant, AC 27, touch 10. With 214, without and -2 PA 87, improvement 127 damage.
CR 13 Iron Golem, AC 30, touch 8. With 223, without and -2 PA 58, improvement 165 damage.

In the original thread I looked at the average improvement across a more random sample. These are the classic cases where Wraithstrike is at it's absolute best.

Other encounters you will find it adds less. The Dread Wraith, for example, is around this level and it adds nothing. Or consider a level 13 monk as an opponent . . .

The dragon, in particular, is about the worst example. Dragons have known lousy touch ACs and massive armor -- you are directly (and correctly as a PC) exploiting the creature's main weakness. However, the Dragon can counter with mobility and avoiding melee as much as possible (usually a good plan for a flying creature).

It is a good spell but it's more situational. I lean towards overpowered but a broader example is helpful.

 

[SlagMortar]

Are we assuming that the Dragon in your example is stationary and not flying, let alone moving? Are we assuming that you always have the option to make a full round attack?

Are we also assuming the Storm Giant is stationary and not moving away to toss boulders at you? Or that the Storm Giant just won't grapple you? Again, are we assuming you are always getting a full round attack on him?

The proposed creatures are very strong in melee and higher CR than the character. If a single 12th level character can completely remove the option using melee from CR 13 creatures that are strong in melee then yes wraith strike is overpowered.

 

[Iku Rex]

I should have been more specific... At what level (within those 12 character levels) does he think this becomes effective? Do we have to wait for all 12 levels? Will it become effective early on (like at 6th level)? Or must we wait the entire 12 levels to actually see any signs of "overpowered-ness"?

Right. The goalpost-moving continues. A detailed build with attached damage tables wasn't good enough - now you want a detailed character progression with estimated damage for each level.

Considering how +180 damage from a swift 2nd level spell was met with casual hand-waving I see little point in trying to argue balance with you.

I guess this was answered though, seems like he feels it becomes overpowered at 12th level w/ this particular build.

No, that's a good level to showcase it. I take it you consider it to be perfectly balanced?

I measure how overpowered something is based on what level the character can do it at, and compare it to what similiar characters can do at that level.

I don't measure it based on the level each resource is.

A couple of examples to make sure I understand what you're saying: If a class gets meteor swarm, time stop or shapechnage at will at 17th level that's not a balance problem- after all, a wizard can cast those spells at that level too. A 1st level spell that lets you cast fireball as a swift action with caster level 13 is A-OK, since that's when you can cast a quickened fireball? (Lower level with the right feats...)

So if someone can come up with a level 12 build that can hit the same AC and do similiar damage (w/o using Wraithstrike of course), would that be good enough to show that it isn't over powered? How many of these builds would it take? Just 1? 2? 10?

10. In complete detail, with equipment and combat stats from level 1 to level 20, and average damage against 5 different monsters on every level. And if you can't be bothered to provide that, I WIN!!!!!

Seriously: IT IS NOT ABOUT "BUILDS". The constant demands for new "builds" are red herrings. A melee mage character is powerful and playable without wraithstrike. Wraithstrike makes them disproportionally more powerful. The presence of other potentially "broken" game mechanics is not relevant. If magic missile was a swift action and did 1d20+5 per missile it would not be a balanced spell, even if you could come up with a character that did more damage at a given level. When considering the balance of a 2nd level spell it should be compared to ... other 2nd level spells. I think that's fairly self-evident to most people.

But if you can post a Core+Complete character equivalent to the one in he OP dealing 223 damage/ round against a CR 16 AC 32 I'd love to see it anyway.