Wraithstrike balance evaluation examples

[Iku Rex]

Are we assuming that the Dragon in your example is stationary and not flying, let alone moving? Are we assuming that you always have the option to make a full round attack?.

What do you think? :\

Are we also assuming the Storm Giant is stationary and not moving away to toss boulders at you? Or that the Storm Giant just won't grapple you? Again, are we assuming you are always getting a full round attack on him?

No.

We're "assuming" that melee characters get into position for a full attack on a fairly regular basis. And they do. It's the players who tend to go out of their way to avoid full attacks. High level melee monsters are not in the habit of running away from combat with puny, lightly armored arcane casters. At least not in my experience. I guess there might be games out there where storm giants and powerful dragons piss themselves at the mere thought of facing a wizard in a head on melee, but I think such games are few and far between. Or at least they were, before wraithstrike was introduced...

Are you calculating the 15/admantine damage reduction the Iron Golem gets? Iron Golems are the smartest of opponents, so you probably will do very good here. Played correctly, I can't picture/justify an Iron Golem using tactics to move away from you. Perhaps to use their breath weapon (if they want to hit you and your party members). But I can see them going in for a grapple, much like the Storm Giant, which will prevent you from attacking or casting w/o making the appropriate checks.

From the OP:

11350 +1 keen adamantine falchion

and more importantly...

Creatures with DR favor wraithstrike, since it lets you crank up the Power Attack and still hit.

And grappling golems? That's the first I've heard of it. But regardless, an arcane caster generally has a better chance of surviving/escaping a grapple with a big monster than a more conventional warrior type.

 

[Nail]

Iku Rex, I applaud your effort, but don't get sucked into tangents!

Let's try some sequential questions:

#1) Does Wraithstrike increase average damage per round against most opponents?

#2) Considering this is a swift action 2nd level spell, how much extra damage would be "too much"? (express as a percentage)

#3) Does your answer to #2 change if the 2nd level spell scales very well with CL?

#4) Is it possible to NOT dodge the questions above and insert meaningless tangents?

 

[Votan]

Iku Rex, I applaud your effort, but don't get sucked into tangents!

Let's try some sequential questions:

#1) Does Wraithstrike increase average damage per round against most opponents?

#2) Considering this is a swift action 2nd level spell, how much extra damage would be "too much"? (express as a percentage)

#3) Does your answer to #2 change if the 2nd level spell scales very well with CL?

#4) Is it possible to NOT dodge the questions above and insert meaningless tangents?

Well, I want to point out that the build that begins this thread is a multiclass designed to maximize the use of the spell. If we wanted a real look at the spell, perhaps a pure class wizard or assassin would make more sense?

After all, this is NOT a pure comparison of a 2nd level spell but a comparison of a level 2 spell PLUS feats (Divine Might, Arcane Strike, Power Attack) and non-caster levels.

If I give up 4 caster levels that is huge. Also note that the level of this build is cherry picked -- there is no way forward without losing either more caster levels or losing BAB.

These things need to be considered when considering raw numbers.

Shapechange and Polymorph can do remarkable things as well. At level 17, this character is up against Druids who can shapechange into Dragons . . .

A pure spell comparison should be done using a typical build (say a DMG wizard or Sorcerer) or in comparison to other specialized builds (things that use Leap Attack for example).

I am not a pro-Wraitstrike guy but we should compare carefully.

 

[Iku Rex]

Other encounters you will find it adds less. The Dread Wraith, for example, is around this level and it adds nothing. Or consider a level 13 monk as an opponent . . .

Dread wraith: AC 25, 104 HPs. Monk 13 (DMG): AC 21, 75 HPs.

In the immortal words of Shania Twain: That don't impress me much.

The wraith will most likely survive a full attack. If it's a solo campaign it may even survive the round. The monk will probably not be as lucky. All without any help from wraithstrike. (Though the character might not want to waste 4th level spell slot on them, which might improve their life expectancy.) Not to mention that standard arcane spells like blink or improved invisibility can easily get rid of Dex to AC.

The dragon, in particular, is about the worst example. Dragons have known lousy touch ACs and massive armor -- you are directly (and correctly as a PC) exploiting the creature's main weakness. However, the Dragon can counter with mobility and avoiding melee as much as possible (usually a good plan for a flying creature).

Dragons have some of the most impressive melee stats for their CR in the game. They are common and generally major encounters. It the best example of what wraithstrike can do.

If I introduce a first level spell that can kill any construct at any range with no save and no SR that spell is broken. Even if lots and lots of monsters are completely unaffected by it.

Again - most high level melee threats have low touch ACs.

It is a good spell but it's more situational. I lean towards overpowered but a broader example is helpful.

If you're thinking of character builds I'm willing to take requests. (Right now I think I'll do a Monk1/Sorcerer8 polymorph based character.)

 

[Votan]

Dread wraith: AC 25, 104 HPs. Monk 13 (DMG): AC 21, 75 HPs.

In the immortal words of Shania Twain: That don't impress me much.

The wraith will most likely survive a full attack. If it's a solo campaign it may even survive the round. The monk will probably not be as lucky. All without any help from wraithstrike. (Though the character might not want to waste 4th level spell slot on them, which might improve their life expectancy.) Not to mention that standard arcane spells like blink or improved invisibility can easily get rid of Dex to AC.
Dragons have some of the most impressive melee stats for their CR in the game. They are common and generally major encounters. It the best example of what wraithstrike can do.

If I introduce a first level spell that can kill any construct at any range with no save and no SR that spell is broken. Even if lots and lots of monsters are completely unaffected by it.

Again - most high level melee threats have low touch ACs.

If you're thinking of character builds I'm willing to take requests. (Right now I think I'll do a Monk1/Sorcerer8 polymorph based character.)

The Wraith's classic trick is to spring attack from walls and thus avoid counter-attacks. It's actually surprisingly lethal vs. parties if they are not prepared. But, corner cases are what I am trying to avoid.


By the way, my objection to Wraithstrike as a second level spell (which is why I am giving you a hard time with builds) is that it is too easy to abuse with syngery. I completely agree that a build designed to maximize synergy with Wraithstrike will be brutal. I don't know if they are overpowered just because what they are compared to can get pretty nasty as well with the amount of material.

But I always saw the spell as an enabler rather than a problem in and of itself.

 

[Iku Rex]

Well, I want to point out that the build that begins this thread is a multiclass designed to maximize the use of the spell. If we wanted a real look at the spell, perhaps a pure class wizard or assassin would make more sense?

First of all, he character in the OP is "melee optimized", not "wraithstrike optimized". (Though the two are much the same of course.)

Wraithstrike is a melee spell. It makes no sense at all to balance it for a non-melee character, when the "melee mage" is an effective and reasonably common character type.

If I give up 4 caster levels that is huge. Also note that the level of this build is cherry picked -- there is no way forward without losing either more caster levels or losing BAB.

Don't think of it as "giving up 4 spellscaster levels". Think of it as gaining 8th level casting ability and some fancy abilities for a point of BAB and some hit points.

You're right about further progression, but the charatcer is all set for Eldritch Knight, which will bring him all he way to 20th level with no loss of BAB and only one lost spellcasting level.

Shapechange and Polymorph can do remarkable things as well. At level 17, this character is up against Druids who can shapechange into Dragons . . .

I agree with you about polymorph and shapechange of course - I'm kind of notorious for my obsessive use of polymorph for "optimization" actually.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Let's not forget some item/spell of Freedom of Movement. The grappling is then useless. As much as I love the spell, I am moving more and more towards the banning of this spell with out some serious changes in level and total effect.

In our age of worms campaign, we had a changling Barb/fight/war ahaper/were touched master that with only a moderate 5 from BA could do 40-60 and hit 2, maybe 3 times. If he did more than that, he would typically miss. This was from levels 16-20. Also, the first attack was 60 because of some feat or magic item on his character, he would do 10-20 points less on subsequent attacks. This was our most productive beatstick.

Wraithstrike makes this it so that this fighter is only a weak back up to the focused fighter/mage build.

Very few builds for just fighters will match the focused f/m. Many builds can utilize greatly wraithstrike to out do a fighter.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Right. The goalpost-moving continues. A detailed build with attached damage tables wasn't good enough - now you want a detailed character progression with estimated damage for each level.

I don't want a detailed anything. I never asked you for examples, others did. I am stating my personal way of determining how over-powered something is. That's all. If other people asked you to post this info, then they can debate you on it using the criteria THEY asked fir (not me), and you provided.

Please don't jump down my throat because I have a different way of determining how over-powered something is than you do. One that doesn't take just numbers into account.

Considering how +180 damage from a swift 2nd level spell was met with casual hand-waving I see little point in trying to argue balance with you.
No, that's a good level to showcase it. I take it you consider it to be perfectly balanced?

I would have to see it in actual game play, against other PCs of the same level. But that's me. YMMV.

A couple of examples to make sure I understand what you're saying: If a class gets meteor swarm, time stop or shapechnage at will at 17th level that's not a balance problem- after all, a wizard can cast those spells at that level too. A 1st level spell that lets you cast fireball as a swift action with caster level 13 is A-OK, since that's when you can cast a quickened fireball? (Lower level with the right feats...)

Err, at will? I don't beleive I said anything of that sort. Why did you throw that in there? Can your character build cast Wraithstrike at will and I missed it?

And your fireball example... No, it wouldn't be alright. In fact, I went out of my way to make that point. See my quote If this were a 2nd level (swift action) direct damage spell that dealt 180 damage, then I could see your concern. Guess you missed that

10. In complete detail, with equipment and combat stats from level 1 to level 20, and average damage against 5 different monsters on every level. And if you can't be bothered to provide that, I WIN!!!!!

Seriously: IT IS NOT ABOUT "BUILDS". The constant demands for new "builds" are red herrings.

I agree with that...

A melee mage character is powerful and playable without wraithstrike. Wraithstrike makes them disproportionally more powerful. The presence of other potentially "broken" game mechanics is not relevant. If magic missile was a swift action and did 1d20+5 per missile it would not be a balanced spell, even if you could come up with a character that did more damage at a given level. When considering the balance of a 2nd level spell it should be compared to ... other 2nd level spells. I think that's fairly self-evident to most people.

See my example of Mirror Image I posted in the other thread (which I am sure you did, which I haven't checked yet ). Mirror Image, another 2nd level spell, can pump up your defense so much so that melee opponents (and ranged opponents for that matter) have about an 89% chance to NOT hit you (assuming you have 8 images up). I don't know of any other high level spell that gives you the same odds to protect yourself.

But if you can post a Core+Complete character equivalent to the one in he OP dealing 223 damage/ round against a CR 16 AC 32 I'd love to see it anyway.

I'll see what I can do (but don't quote me on that!)

 

[RigaMortus2]

What do you think? :\

No.

We're "assuming" that melee characters get into position for a full attack on a fairly regular basis. And they do. It's the players who tend to go out of their way to avoid full attacks. High level melee monsters are not in the habit of running away from combat with puny, lightly armored arcane casters. At least not in my experience. I guess there might be games out there where storm giants and powerful dragons piss themselves at the mere thought of facing a wizard in a head on melee, but I think such games are few and far between. Or at least they were, before wraithstrike was introduced...

Wizards? Not usually... But we aren't talking about a robe wearing, staff wielding, spellbook carrying (well, maybe that) character, are we? We are talking about an armored (at least lightly), sword wielding, spell chucker. Any half way intelligent creature (which is why I can see your point with the Iron Golem match) will know what they are about.

My DM tends not to play Dragons and Giants and similiar creatures as "dumb", unless their Int actually is low. To do so I think is a disservice to the players IMHO.

Against mooks, full attacks happen all the time. And unless the creature is forced into a disadvantagous position, they tend to take advantage of the terrain as much as possible, just as players do. That's my experience anyway.

and more importantly...
And grappling golems? That's the first I've heard of it. But regardless, an arcane caster generally has a better chance of surviving/escaping a grapple with a big monster than a more conventional warrior type.

Really? They have a grapple score. In fact, their grapple score is +28 vs. their BAB of +12. And golems don't have to worry about losing their Dex vs sneak attacks when grappling either.

Those that prepare for a grapple will certainly have Dimension Door (or similiar) memorized for these situations. Hey, I noticed you didn't pick Dimension Door for your build. Do you usually only fight creatures that you can easily get into melee combat with, are stationary, and don't attempt to grapple you (or that the DM doesn't "think" to use grapple)?

(slightly off topic)
Funny story... During a campaign session where we were fighting giants with great swords, one of my allies decided to sunder the great sword (which he did). The giant promptly grappled him and ended up killing him in a couple of rounds. Taking a lesson form my friend, from that day forward, I never sunder a giants weapon and I never approach them if they are unarmed

 

[Amazing Triangle]

Balanced by lots of encounters per day

Wraithstrike is limited by the number of times you can use it a day. If you are a Fighter/Wizard (level 3-9) you have a maximum of 1-4 a day if you prepare nothing but wraithstrike (+1 or +2 depending on your modifier, remembering you are giving up HP or Dex or Str to increase Int) If you are a Fighter/Sorcerer (Level 4-7) getting between 3-6 (same as above +1 or +2...)

So in a one battle a day your ability to use wraithstrike is not hindered. Its strength really only shines when you add a PrC that add Combat and Casting ability. So lets see:
Bladesinger: Fighter 4/Wizard 2
Spell Sword: Fighter 2/Wizard 4
Enlightened Fist: Monk 1/Wizard 5
Abjurant Champion: Wizard 2/Fighter4
Eldritch Knight: Fighter 1/ Wizard 5

These have a maximum of 2+modifier per day at maximum. So again you are only getting 2 second level spells and you have a BAB between 4 and 5 at 6th level (3/4 BAB at 4 to 6). So at best at 6th level:
Power attack 4 +4 (1 handed)~+8 (2 handed) leaving you with a +1 (wpn focus) +2~+3 (str)

So the spell at low level adds a lot less than a second level spell (4d6 scorching ray 14 damage on average)

Wraithstrike really adds to high level builds as he showed but until then it only helps you hit hard to hit high AC targets, when power attack is NOT a viable option. It is balanced in balanced builds. It becomes unbalanced when you combine it with other things that min/max a fighter build toward damage.