Wraithstrike balance evaluation examples

[Iku Rex]

I don't want a detailed anything. I never asked you for examples, others did.

From the other thread (underlining mine):

You are not looking at what you are giving up by maximizing on WS though. Make an actual build, and you will see that while you may be doing a lot of damage w/ WS, you are sacrificing in other areas. Either you yourself will also be hit just as easily because of low AC, or you won't have a ton of HPs like a person that concentrates on that, or a any plethora of other things (some combat related, some not).

and

It is strong, but you need to make very specific builds to take advantage of it, and you often compensate in other areas when doing so.

True, you were not as aggressive about "actual builds" as Mistwell were, but you did make claims that can only be proven wrong by example. What did you expect? Were you just making noise, not expecting anyone to take you up on it?

Err, at will? I don't beleive I said anything of that sort. Why did you throw that in there? Can your character build cast Wraithstrike at will and I missed it?

This is what you said:

I measure how overpowered something is based on what level the character can do it at, and compare it to what similiar characters can do at that level.

I don't measure it based on the level each resource is.

My examples involved characters "doing things" at the same level other characters can. That was your standard for brokeness, wasn't it? You casually dismiss the spell's level, which tells me you don't care how often it can be cast or what the cost is to acquire it. (?)

See my example of Mirror Image I posted in the other thread (which I am sure you did, which I haven't checked yet ). Mirror Image, another 2nd level spell, can pump up your defense so much so that melee opponents (and ranged opponents for that matter) have about an 89% chance to NOT hit you (assuming you have 8 images up). I don't know of any other high level spell that gives you the same odds to protect yourself.

I consider your mirror image example another red herring. I'm not going to repeat the arguments which have already been posted about it by others.

 

[Iku Rex]

Human Monk 1/Stalwart Sorc (CMag) 8 (lv9)

25 pb

	Levels	Item	Total 	Polymorphed annis
Str 13		+2	15 (+2) 27 (+8)	
Dex  8 			 8 (-1)	12 (+1)
Con 16		+2	18 (+4) 14 (+2)
Int  8			 8 (-1)	-
Wis  8			 8 (-1)	-	
Cha 16	+2	+2	20 (+5)	-

Feats (1,1,3,6,9): Improved Unarmed Strike*, Improved Grapple, MWP: Greatsword*, Power Attack, Improved Toughness (CWar), Ascetic Mage (CAdv), Force of Personality (CAdv), Minor Shapeshift (CMag 45)

(Should get Eschew Materials if going for Master transmogrifist PrC from CArc.)

Rat Familiar

Spells known:
4th (4/day, 1 known): Polymorph
3rd (6/day, 1* known): Blink
2nd (7/day, 3 known): Wraithstrike (CAdv, SC), Alter Self, Swift Fly (CAdv)
1st (8/day, 5 known): Shield, Enlarge Person, Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement

* Stalwart Sorcerer

Equipment (36000 max):

4000 Amulet of Health +2
6000 Amulet of Mighty Fists +1
4100 Armbands of Might (CAdv)
4000 Gauntlets of Strength +2
4000 Cloak of Charisma +2
4000 Vest of Resistance +2 (CArc)
2000 Ring of Protection +1
4000 Ring of Counterspells (Dispel magic, from party member or hired wizard)

3900 left

Combat: This one requires more buff time than the previous character. Mage Armor is cast in advance, as is alter self. Once combat begins he'll start with polymorph, then blink (if it seems prudent). Shild can be added on top of that for more AC. (Blink affects the total damage quite a bit, but in my experience the benefits outweight the cost by a good margin. Still, replacing blink with heroism would save buff time, spell slots and increase damage output in most cases. Sadly, Stalwar Sorcerer prevents him from using both. I like hit points. :/)

Polymorph, blink, no shield, full attack:

AB (annis form):
+3 BAB
+8 Strength
+2 blink spell
+1 enhancement amulet
-2 Power Attack
-2 flurry of blows
= +9/+9/+4/+4/+4 20% miss chance

(Some people don't think you can flurry in the same round as you use secondary natural attacks, but Wizards of the Coast and Andy Collins disagrees [see FAQ].)

Damage (annis form):
1d6
+8/4 Str
+1 enhancement amulet
+2 Power Attack
+2 armbands of might
+2 minor shapeshift
= 1d6+16/+12, 20/2x If two claws - rend for 2d6+12 damage.

(Using minor shapeshift for extra damage is a waste. I'd probably stick with the extra temorary hit points. But damage looks better in the table. )

AC (annis form):
10 base
-1 Large
+1 Dex
+10 natural armor
+4 mage armor
+1 ring of protection
+5 Ascetic Mage
= AC 30 50% miss chance

Saves (fort/ref/will) (annis form):
2/2/2 monk
2/2/6 sorcerer
2/2/2 vest of resistance
2/1/-1(+5) ability scores
2/0/0 familiar
---
Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +9/+14

Average hit points: 8 + 8d4 (Sorc) + 9*4 (Con) + 9 (ImpTough) + 2*8 Stalwrt Sorc = 89 hit points

Now, for the numbers. I'll just post one table this time, as I used a simple -2 with power Attack. Not 100% "fair", but it will have to do. The flurry is another potentially non-optimal tactic, due to the -2 on all 5 attacks. The rend may even make it worth it to drop the unarmed strikes altogether. (I did som quick testing. Both flurry and rend is optimal for wraithstrike, but the flurry doesn't do much for the regular attack and using just the natural attacks actually improved damage without wraithstrike.)

AC	1	2	3	4	5	Total	Rend	Tot2
6	19,45	19,45	15,46	15,46	15,46	68,23	10,97	79,2
7	19,45	19,45	14,65	14,65	14,65	66,28	15,39	81,67
8	19,45	19,45	13,83	13,83	13,83	64,32	13,73	78,05
9	19,45	19,45	13,02	13,02	13,02	62,37	12,16	74,53
10	19,45	19,45	12,21	12,21	12,21	60,42	10,69	71,1
11	19,45	19,45	11,39	11,39	11,39	58,46	9,31	67,77
12	18,43	18,43	10,58	10,58	10,58	54,87	8,03	62,9
13	17,40	17,40	9,77	9,77	9,77	51,28	6,84	58,12
14	16,38	16,38	8,95	8,95	8,95	47,69	5,75	53,44
15	15,36	15,36	8,14	8,14	8,14	44,10	4,75	48,85
16	14,33	14,33	7,32	7,32	7,32	40,51	3,85	44,36
17	13,31	13,31	6,51	6,51	6,51	36,92	3,04	39,96
18	12,29	12,29	5,70	5,70	5,70	33,33	2,33	35,65
19	11,26	11,26	4,88	4,88	4,88	29,74	1,71	31,45
20	10,24	10,24	4,07	4,07	4,07	26,15	1,19	27,33
21	9,21	9,21	3,26	3,26	3,26	22,55	0,76	23,31
22	8,19	8,19	2,44	2,44	2,44	18,96	0,43	19,39
23	7,17	7,17	1,63	1,63	1,63	15,37	0,19	15,56
24	6,14	6,14	0,81	0,81	0,81	11,78	0,05	11,83
25	5,12	5,12	0,81	0,81	0,81	10,14	0,05	10,19
26	4,10	4,10	0,81	0,81	0,81	8,51	0,05	8,55
27	3,07	3,07	0,81	0,81	0,81	6,87	0,05	6,91
28	2,05	2,05	0,81	0,81	0,81	5,23	0,05	5,28
29	1,02	1,02	0,81	0,81	0,81	3,59	0,05	3,64
30	1,02	1,02	0,81	0,81	0,81	3,59	0,05	3,64
31	1,02	1,02	0,81	0,81	0,81	3,59	0,05	3,64
32	1,02	1,02	0,81	0,81	0,81	3,59	0,05	3,64
33	1,02	1,02	0,81	0,81	0,81	3,59	0,05	3,64
34	1,02	1,02	0,81	0,81	0,81	3,59	0,05	3,64
35	1,02	1,02	0,81	0,81	0,81	3,59	0,05	3,64
36	1,02	1,02	0,81	0,81	0,81	3,59	0,05	3,64

Sample opponents:
CR 14 Adult Blue Dragon. AC 27, touch 9.
With wraithstrike - 78 damage. Without - 5 damage. Improvement: 73 damage.
(Not really a viable opponent without the W.)

CR 11 Elder Earth Elemental (DR 10/-), AC 22, touch 7.
With wraithstrike - 43 damage. Without - 9 damage. Improvement: 32 damage.
(Edit: Turns out touch attacks ignore DR. Again: Yikes!)

CR 9 Frost Giant, AC 21, touch 8.
With wraithstrike - 78 damage. Without - 23 damage. Improvement: 45 damage.

CR 10 NPC Barbarian, AC 18, touch 12 (uncanny dodge I think), DR 2/-
With wraithstrike - 57 damage. Without - 32 damage. Improvement: 24 damage.

(Note that blink makes high Dex opponents especially vulnerable.)

The numbers aren't as impressive as before, but there's still a very significant damage increase due to wraithstrike.

 

[Mort]

Sample opponents:
CR 14 Adult Blue Dragon. AC 27, touch 9.
With wraithstrike - 78 damage. Without - 5 damage. Improvement: 73 damage.
(Not really a viable opponent without the W.)

CR 11 Elder Earth Elemental (DR 10/-), AC 22, touch 7.
With wraithstrike - 43 damage. Without - 9 damage. Improvement: 32 damage.

CR 9 Frost Giant, AC 21, touch 8.
With wraithstrike - 78 damage. Without - 23 damage. Improvement: 45 damage.

CR 10 NPC Barbarian, AC 18, touch 12 (uncanny dodge I think), DR 2/-
With wraithstrike - 57 damage. Without - 32 damage. Improvement: 24 damage.

(Note that blink makes high Dex opponents especially vulnerable.)

The numbers aren't as impressive as before, but there's still a very significant damage increase due to wraithstrike.

Did you take into account that per RAW touch attacks ignore DR? Yet another reason wraithstrike is a big deal.

 

[Iku Rex]

Wizards? Not usually... But we aren't talking about a robe wearing, staff wielding, spellbook carrying (well, maybe that) character, are we? We are talking about an armored (at least lightly), sword wielding, spell chucker. Any half way intelligent creature (which is why I can see your point with the Iron Golem match) will know what they are about.

Dragons may be familiar with special melee spells (and may in fact have wraithstrike themselves), but giants? I don't see some enormous and arrogant giant running from the little guy in light armor just in case he's got wraithstrike prepared.

My DM tends not to play Dragons and Giants and similiar creatures as "dumb", unless their Int actually is low. To do so I think is a disservice to the players IMHO.

A powerful melee monster's best chance of winning a battle (it does want to win, right - it doesn't know it's supposed to loose?) is to take out the arcane caster(s) and the lightly armored characters quickly. The way to do that is full attacks, where it can overwhelm a single character. Intelligent melee monsters want to trade full attacks.

You could argue that the mere presence of wraithstrike in spellbooks would change how the campaign world works (a valid argument), but I don't think that speaks in favor of wraithstrike and I don't think every hydra and giant and whatnot would be that familiar with arcane spells.

Really? They have a grapple score. In fact, their grapple score is +28 vs. their BAB of +12. And golems don't have to worry about losing their Dex vs sneak attacks when grappling either.

I know they have a grapple score. What they don't have is an Int score, so they won't get "creative" unless their master orders them to. (And any tactical "programming" will be very limited.)

Those that prepare for a grapple will certainly have Dimension Door (or similiar) memorized for these situations. Hey, I noticed you didn't pick Dimension Door for your build. Do you usually only fight creatures that you can easily get into melee combat with, are stationary, and don't attempt to grapple you (or that the DM doesn't "think" to use grapple)?

Heart of earth lets the character in the OP activate stoneskin for 1 round/level. That should keep him reasonably safe while the rest of the party takes care of the grappling opponent. With enlarge person his grapple checks will be superior to most "pure" fighters at level 12, preventing him from getting tied up by grappling low-level fodder.

 

[Iku Rex]

Did you take into account that per RAW touch attacks ignore DR?

Yikes! I did not. That's a big deal indeed.

(Good thing I looked it up before telling you you were wrong. )

Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction

 

[Rystil Arden]

Wow, I didn't even notice that because it was in the DR description and not the Touch Attack description. Zounds! Simply zounds! If you told me you just made a 2nd-level Swift spell that allowed all attacks that round to ignore all DR, I'd tell you you were nuts even if it didn't also ignore most AC.

 

[two]

the real pronlem

Awesome job Iku!

If you are bored, you might run a few monsters through your machine who also cast wraithstrike (vs. the pc's).

Like, a dragon, or a lower level opponent.

The results will be, well... horrfying. 1 dead pc a round.

 

[two]

Kill me a god

Does this also mean you can kill a god (bypass Godly DR) via wraithstrike?

 

[Slaved]

People are reading "does not negate" as "does not have an effect on"? I would not read it that way myself, especially since the part after that actually mentions damage.

 

[Mort]

People are reading "does not negate" as "does not have an effect on"? I would not read it that way myself, especially since the part after that actually mentions damage.

It's still questionable. That said, reading it as bypassing it DR is so over the top that my current DM decided regardless of RAW DR is not affected.
The spell is still over the top and he said next time it's on the banned list. Of course I'm in line to DM, and just from using it myself I'm not going to allow it as written.