Wraithstrike balance evaluation examples

[Infiniti2000]

It is "clarifying" the previous sentence. DR does not auto-stop touch attacks, is what it is saying.

Then how do you figure in, say, harm? It's a touch attack. It deals damage. How do you fit that in to the paragraph you quoted and your conclusion? Unless you subtract the DR from the harm, you have to read that second sentence as somewhat separate from the previous sentence.

 

[Cabral]

Then how do you figure in, say, harm? It's a touch attack. It deals damage. How do you fit that in to the paragraph you quoted and your conclusion? Unless you subtract the DR from the harm, you have to read that second sentence as somewhat separate from the previous sentence.

First paragraph: "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities"

After this thread, my conclusion is that it is clarifying that touch attacks delivered along with a melee attack (ie, delivering harm with an unarmed strike) is not affected if the DR completely negates the base damage.

 

[Mistwell]

I think this thread proves the point I was trying to make in the other thread - if you build around this spell, it will be overpowered. If you don't, it won't.

If you build around Scorching Ray, it will be overpowered. I've seen that build, with the metamagic cost-reduction stuff like Incantatrix abilities and some feats. It uses the same concept - a spell that lets you strike as a touch attack. And it is the same spell level - 2nd level. The damage was incredible, at right around this same level as well.

I even once saw a devastating build for Ray of Enfeeblement, a first level spell.

My point is that just looking at a lot of damage, and a spell level, is not enough. You focus everything on a concept, and it will break. But if you put it into a normal caster, it works just fine. Much like Scorching Ray and Ray of Enfeeblement work just fine if the character isn't twinked to focus on those spells.

If you are trying to prove that wraitstrike can be abused, at higher levels, with a build intended to take advantage of it, then you have shown that. But if you are trying to prove that wraitstrike is overpowered in your average game with your average caster, you have not,

 

[Mort]

I think this thread proves the point I was trying to make in the other thread - if you build around this spell, it will be overpowered. If you don't, it won't.

You're not building "around the spell" you are building a standard issue fighter/mage and throwing this spell in -this has been made abundantly clear.

But forgetting that, very few things are overpowered in a vacuum so this argument lacks merit. Look at the feat combat brute - the feat is too good and not well thought out, but If you don't have a charging fighter, the feat is useless.

The question is and always has been, if you use the spell for what it was intended - is it too good? The spell was clearly intended for fighter/mages (it's in complete adventurer which has all of the multiclass stuff).

If you build around Scorching Ray, it will be overpowered. I've seen that build, with the metamagic cost-reduction stuff like Incantatrix abilities and some feats. It uses the same concept - a spell that lets you strike as a touch attack. And it is the same spell level - 2nd level. The damage was incredible, at right around this same level as well

Scortching ray is a very good 2nd level spell - but an empowered scorching ray tops out at 18d6 - you need 3 touch attacks and it's subject to both fire and spell resistance - again not even in the same league. Even if you maximize and empower it (a 7th level spell) you still only get 108 points of damage which is well bellow the average of what wraithstrike can do. Show me an example where scortching ray can approach 170+ HP to a high CR opponent on a consistant basis.

I even once saw a devastating build for Ray of Enfeeblement, a first level spell.

Again, a very good 1st level spell -but nowhere near subject to the same abuse plus it can be dispelled.

My point is that just looking at a lot of damage, and a spell level, is not enough. You focus everything on a concept, and it will break. But if you put it into a normal caster, it works just fine. Much like Scorching Ray and Ray of Enfeeblement work just fine if the character isn't twinked to focus on those spells.

If you are trying to prove that wraitstrike can be abused, at higher levels, with a build intended to take advantage of it, then you have shown that. But if you are trying to prove that wraitstrike is overpowered in your average game with your average caster, you have not,

Wraithstrike is overpowered in your average game (average game can mean 9+ level you know) with your average fighter/mage (not a radical concept in the slightest).

 

[IanB]

I'm not sure I agree with Two's reading.

I think that sentence means what it says. My feeling is that it is there to indicate that the normal damage dealt by, say, a wraith's incorporeal touch attack, is not reduced by DR.

However I am also pretty sure that the writers of wraithstrike were not aware of that rule.

 

[IanB]

I think this thread proves the point I was trying to make in the other thread - if you build around this spell, it will be overpowered. If you don't, it won't.

Well yes, Joe the 3rd level sorcerer with no weapon skills won't be able to use it effectively. However, Joe's experience is not relevant to the game balance decision of banning the spell or not. You have to look at the spell in the context where it will actually be used. Joe the blaster isn't going to even take the spell, but Jake the eldritch knight certainly will. He doesn't even really have to optimize to make it broken, he just has to play his class like he otherwise would anyway. Unless you count taking Power Attack as "building around the spell."

 

[two]

To repeat!

I think this thread proves the point I was trying to make in the other thread - if you build around this spell, it will be overpowered. If you don't, it won't.

...

If you are trying to prove that wraitstrike can be abused, at higher levels, with a build intended to take advantage of it, then you have shown that. But if you are trying to prove that wraitstrike is overpowered in your average game with your average caster, you have not,

Again... how many times do we have to say it. Nothing about this build is vaguely optimized to take advantage of Wraithstrike!

Nearly all fighter-mage types are going to have power attack. All fighter types already do. Requiring a fighter build to have power attack is not, obviously, a limitation nor a "specialized build."

Let me put it this way. Take a normal fighter-mage build which also has power attack. Go ahead. Take one. Any one. Calculate its average damage at level 5, 10, 15, 20. Then mix in wraithstrike. Most of us object to the huge damage jump.

Wraithstrike just does nice damage at low levels, great at middle, obscene at mid-high, and over-the-top at high. I can't imagine the epic consequences.

Please don't repeat the old canard about "requiring a specific build." It does not. Just a reasonably-efficient melee build with access to WS. Or a pure melee spellcaster build, with polymorph, or... etc.

PS: WraithStrike really takes the fun out of optimization. Optimizing Ray of Enfeeblement? Takes a lot of planning, feats, energy, and creativity. Optimize Wraithstrike? That's trivial.

 

[Mort]

I've posted a poll on the damage reduction-touch attack issue so it doesn't clutter this thread.

poll

 

[Mistwell]

Again... how many times do we have to say it. Nothing about this build is vaguely optimized to take advantage of Wraithstrike!

I can call the sky green all day...it will still be blue. You fiating over the issue that this is not a standard build doesn't make it a standard build. I mentioned this in the other thread on this topic, and got the same kinds of responses. But really, I think if you took a poll of real games, as opposed to rules monkeys who hang out in the rules forum of EnWorld looking to optimize builds and reading about optimized builds, I strongly believe you will not find that this sort of build is in any way typical or standard.

I've seen builds that let you get off two maximized empowered scorching rays as a third level spell each, with the fire resistance eliminated as an issue using a feat, and extra damage stacked on top of it with other feats, and attack bonuses cranked, and it comes out as way more damage than this build does with wraitstrike. AND you didn't need to get into melee range and risk loss of hit points and have a big need for a high AC and issues with grappling as often. Did that build convince me that scorching ray is broken? No, it just convinced me that certain incantatrix builds focused on a single spell paired with a couple of other fairly standard feats for incantatrix-type builds (which are otherwise fairly obscure feats) can be broken.

Same thing just happened here. There is nothing "standard" about this kind of build. It's totally focused on a melee-attacking mage with multiple attacks per round hitting as a touch attack. That's not a normal build. I'd venture to guess it hasn't been seen by MOST of your everyday players. A straight wizard? Sure. A straight fighter? Sure. But both, with arcane strike, power attack, a high strength, gold spent mostly on melee fighting, and focus on BAB and HPs and AC but still getting mid-level spells and making it to level 10 with that kind of build without dying? Naw...not standard. Probably quite rare actually.

But I think it's clear I am not going to convince anyone in this thread of that. That's okay. It's hard to persuade regulars in this gaming rules forum to move from their position. I am more speaking to the lurkers and folks who find this thread in the future through a search. For you guys - let it be known that there is not concensus on this issue, and that it just might be that in the majority of cases this spell is just fine, and you should test it for yourself over several games in multiple senarios before concluding this spell is a problem.

 

[Rystil Arden]

But I think it's clear I am not going to convince anyone in this thread of that. That's okay. It's hard to persuade regulars in this gaming rules forum to move from their position. I am more speaking to the lurkers and folks who find this thread in the future through a search.

I think you make a good point, Mistwell. Neither side is going to convince the other on this issue. So to lurkers and folks who look in this thread in the future--ask yourself: Is a Fighter/Mage/EldritchKnight with Power Attack a crazy convoluted build that you've never seen before and expect to never see again? Do you not have any monsters in your game (such as dragons) who have massive melee attacks and the ability to use spells and choose Wraithstrike?

If both of these are true for you (and we know from Mistwell that the former is true for him and his game, and I guess by having the GM simply choose not to give dragons Wraithstrike you can hide the latter), then Wraithstrike will be much less of a problem in your game.

If either of those is not true, as I predict is the case for at least 90% of games (and I know is true for 100% of games in anecdotal evidence that I've encountered except Mistwell's), then be VERY CAREFUL about allowing Wraithstrike in your game. It can and quite probably will be so broken as to ruin the fun of the game, which is a level of broken usually reserved for crazy WotC Optimisation Forum builds, with just one little level 2 spell and a bog-standard gish.