Wraithstrike balance evaluation examples

[frisbeet]

A plug, if I may: please have a look at the power attack spreedsheet on my site. Here's the link and verbage therein.

http://www.geocities.com/frisbeet/DandDandFightin.html

The 3.11 MB zipped Excel spreadsheet compares the average melee attack damage/round of a 3.5 Edition Dungeons and Dragons character, wielding his or her choice of Player's Handbook (PHB) weapons, inflicted against armor class values 10-50. The "comparison" worksheet is the only one not hidden, and is where the character and weapons may be parameterized; these are the yellow fields.

The spreadsheet also determines the optimum Power Attack value which maximizes the average damage/round

Nearly all combat feats and class inherent abilities from PHB, PHBII, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, and Miniatures Handbook directly affecting melee attack roll, damage, and # attacks are included in the calculation and can be selected as desired. Many additional feats and prestige classes offered in core and supplemental resources can be exactly modeled in the spreadsheet with proper parameterization. The opponent's Damage Reduction and immunity to critical hits, attack modes Standard Attack and Charge Attack, and number of Attacks of Opportunity can also be selected as desired.

Please download the spreadsheet and modify it as you see fit. To view its brains, you'll need to "unhide" the other calculation/compilation sheets by selecting Unhide from the Format-Sheet dropdown menu. Future updates/corrections made by me will be implied in the file name as a version suffix > 7, and will also be annotated below.

 

[Nail]

Another plug for frisbeet's sheet: I've been using sucessively newer versions of it for years. It rocks!

 

[RigaMortus2]

In my epic game my character has a Jade Phoenix Mage the PrC from Tome of Blood.

He has signature spell (wraithstrike).

He can use a maneuver as a full round action which allows him to keep attacking as many times as he wants until he misses with a minus 4 for each attack. Using wraith strike he's hitting the touch AC so against something like a dragon he can hit MANY MANY times in one round.

He also took arcane strike so he can add this damage for sacrificing a spell into all those attacks as well. Let's just say it is insane damage.

You don't need to be epic for this, it just happens to be where I saw it in my game. You can easily do this around 12th level or so.

I've come to realize that wraithstrike is insane. Maybe if it was 4th level or higher than it'd be ok because you couldn't do it with a lower level spell and it would minimize huge abuse from fighter/caster types. Being second level means a sorcerer could have nearly unlimited uses unless you have a whole lot of battles in one day.

Just so you know, there are maneuvers out there that allow you to do the same exact thing as Wraithstrike.

With ToB (and no Wraithstrike), you could...

Round 1) Stormguard Warrior [Combat Rhythm] (F) + Avalanche of Blades (DM7, M) + Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (TC8, M) + Crushing Strike (F) (optional)

Round 2) Diamond Nightmare Blade (DM8, M)

Stormguard Warrior is a tactical feat. If you use Combat Rhythm, it allows you to make a touch attacks that deals no damage. For every successul touch attack you make, you deal +5 damage to whomever you attack in the following round. Avalanch of Blades allows you to make a single attack at your highest BAB. If it hits, you can make another attack at -4. You keep making attacks at a cumulative -4 until you miss. Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip deals an extra 8d6 damage (minimum) if you hit with 2 attacks, and for each additional attack that hits, the damage goes up. Diamond Nightmare Blade quadruples the damage you do on an attack.

So in effect, you make multiple touch attacks that deal no damage themselves, but do by virtue of GWFR. The next round, add all the touch attacks you previously made and multiply that number by 5 (thanks to Stormguard Warrior). Then multiply that number by 4 (thanks to Diamond Nightmare Blade), and this is the bonus damage you do in the following round.

 

[Mistwell]

Another plug for frisbeet's sheet: I've been using sucessively newer versions of it for years. It rocks!

Yeah that was pretty interesting.

So, just as a test, what do you think is optimal for around a 6th level fighter, when using such a spreadsheet? I figured I should use some sort of baseline when looking at it.

 

[The_Furious_Puffin]

This build seems to be.. well, prety damn good... but it is out of line vs a Cleric, Druid or Wizard of level 12? I'd say.. not particularly. Probably a bit

I choose not to consider any other class, because they are.. the suck.

Taking the wizard - this combo seems awesome against monsters with insane AC's and low dex.... if you want to play that game, isn't true strike -> sudden maximised/empowered/maximised shivering touch just as good? It will completely pwn all the same monsters by making them lose 15-18 points of dex, and additionally you get to play a full caster (probably a level 5 wizard, 7 incantrix). The bonus here is that casters win D&D, cause like you have a full range of save or sucks to chuck at the bad guys, which you can "setup" in almost any situation by just maxing your DCs and well, casting a spell, in addition to the "instantly own target monster with dex less than 18" shtick in a spell slot that doesn't even matter - this is all for the power of a standard action, you can still use that move action to fly away from melee machines!

Also, at this point things like antilife shell, wall of force, and similar are getting thrown around, which just completely wtf pwn wraithstrike.

So, while it may still be "too good" I think alot of the awesome here is coming from some of the other usual suspects, like Alter Self - it would be intresting to do a comparision between a twinked out wizard and the wraithstrike machine.

PS. Beat the iron golem with acid fog and ventroqism

 

[Elemental]

Just so you know, there are maneuvers out there that allow you to do the same exact thing as Wraithstrike.

With ToB (and no Wraithstrike), you could...

Round 1) Stormguard Warrior [Combat Rhythm] (F) + Avalanche of Blades (DM7, M) + Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (TC8, M) + Crushing Strike (F) (optional)

Round 2) Diamond Nightmare Blade (DM8, M)

Stormguard Warrior is a tactical feat. If you use Combat Rhythm, it allows you to make a touch attacks that deals no damage. For every successul touch attack you make, you deal +5 damage to whomever you attack in the following round. Avalanch of Blades allows you to make a single attack at your highest BAB. If it hits, you can make another attack at -4. You keep making attacks at a cumulative -4 until you miss. Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip deals an extra 8d6 damage (minimum) if you hit with 2 attacks, and for each additional attack that hits, the damage goes up. Diamond Nightmare Blade quadruples the damage you do on an attack.

So in effect, you make multiple touch attacks that deal no damage themselves, but do by virtue of GWFR. The next round, add all the touch attacks you previously made and multiply that number by 5 (thanks to Stormguard Warrior). Then multiply that number by 4 (thanks to Diamond Nightmare Blade), and this is the bonus damage you do in the following round.

So, if I invest fifteen class levels in Swordsage or Warblade, and spend two turns, one level 7 manouvere and two level 8 manouveres, I (once per encounter if a Swordsage) can do as much damage as with a level 2 spell?

Not the most convincing balance argument I've ever heard.

 

[Mistwell]

So, if I invest fifteen class levels in Swordsage or Warblade, and spend two turns, one level 7 manouvere and two level 8 manouveres, I (once per encounter if a Swordsage) can do as much damage as with a level 2 spell?

Not the most convincing balance argument I've ever heard.

Oh brother. If the spell alone could do it, you would be right. But for page after page people have been detailing just what it takes to make that one spell as effective as claimed, and it is far from just any old character casting the spell. Wraithstrike is just one of MANY things that go into that combo to make it work.

 

[Deset Gled]

Wraithstrike is just one of MANY things that go into that combo to make it work.

One thing that increases the average output by 180 points of damage. One 2nd level thing.

 

[Mort]

Oh brother. If the spell alone could do it, you would be right. But for page after page people have been detailing just what it takes to make that one spell as effective as claimed, and it is far from just any old character casting the spell. Wraithstrike is just one of MANY things that go into that combo to make it work.

Sigh - no wraithstrike is the lynchpin - that's the entire problem - it takes an effective combo (arcane strike, power attack etc.) and puts it over the top.

For example if you take the Bo9S combo proposed by RigaMortus2 and use it with a jade phoenix mage who adds wraithstrike - you then have a touch attack for the Diamond Nightmare blade (that much easier to hit) and with a 2 handed weapon can add an additional 104 HP of damage or so to an already huge combo.

edit: as a side note if instead of using diamond nightmare blade you optimize your character for twf - the overall combo is more effective and if you THEN add wraithstrike you can approach an extra 200 points of damage (in addition to the huge damage you are doing already).

 

[Mistwell]

One thing that increases the average output by 180 points of damage. One 2nd level thing.

No, it really doesn't. In fact, in most builds it would be a sub-optimal choice of spells. Only with a good BAB, HPs, AC, power attack, two handed weapon, high strength, etc... does it work out.

Why the sudden need to exagerate what happened in this thread? If wraithstrike is so overpowered on it's face, why would you guys feel the need to exagerate that it alone is doing that kind of damage without anything else contributing to the builds in question?