two said:
Actually, you are simply avoiding anything and everything that does not line up with your assumption that WS is fine.
I disagree, and there was no reason for being personal about it. Make your point, don't just attack me.
People HAVE tried WS in their games. They posted their experiences. The spell was so powerful it was banned. To these examples you said... well it is not WS it is polymorph... it is power attack... is is the EK build...
So you ignored the real life examples after asking for and getting them.
Incorrect. Two people said they tried it. Of those, one said they banned it after one session, the other said they were using it AND SO FAR IT HAS NOT BEEN OVERPOWERED but it LOOKED LIKE IT WAS PROBABLY GOING TO BE OVERPOWERED in future levels.
That's it. A grand total of two people, neither of whom found the spell overpowered yet over a long period of time.
The examples you gave of polymorph and EK? Just on paper. All were just pure speculation, and not actual reports of people having tried it and seen if it was overpowered in play over a period of time.
You demanded builds either simple or complex and were given them, plus evidence it was "broken on paper." You see this as possibly useful but not enough to convince.
I didn't make such demands, I simply said it was easier to discuss the specifics rather than the generalities. And I did find the specifics useful. It led to, for example, the power attack debate. It got rid of, for example, all those claims that the spell was overpowered at lower levels (which it clearly is not, since people couldn't seem to even theoretically make a build at levels below 12th that was overpowered).
And you refuse to address even the most simple builds: EK + Power attack + WS or Wiz + polymorph + WS.
I responded to them. You didn't like the response. But that doesn't mean I ignored it.
You have not actually "debated" anything.
"Debate" means you look at and engage with the other sides' argument.
You are obviously not going to change your opinion, regardless of evidence or other people's experiences.
I think that is first unfair, as I did debate. Heck, I was debating 7 people at once, over weeks period of time. You just didn't like my answers. That's okay, but don't accuse me of not holding up my end of the unspoken debating agreement here.
I just realized it got to a stalemate. Just as you think my opinion cannot change, I think yours cannot change. Particularly on the issue of "try it out in a real game over a period of time and see for yourself". Why people are so adamantly against that I do not know. You would think it was the end of the world as we know it, from some of the reactions I got. Like it was so toxic that no player would ever want to play a game again by the mere taint of playing with this spell in a few games, despite those who did play with it not reporting their games ended forever because of it.
Anyway, once you figure out something is a stalemate, I don't see the point of continuing. Both our sides are fairly represented here. On both the issue of WS itself, and whether people should try it and find out in some games or avoid trying it altogether. What else is there to be said?
You are not arguing a point, you are stating one and restating it as nauseum.
Sure I am. We ended the debate because it was a stalemate. So now I am advocating people try it for themselves, and debating people who say it shouldn't ever be tried. You again seem to just not like the response.
I came to the debate thinking WS was likely overpowered. I looked at the numbers and read about people's experiences with it. I then was convinced it was overpowered. I read your assertions that is was not and had nothing to cling to. You think it is not because... you think it is not?
I think it is not, because I tried it and found it to be not overpowered. Something you refuse to do apparrently - which is try it. My position has always been that this is one of those things that ends up as not overpowered in most games in actual play. Your response seems to be "but on paper it's broken". Okay. But that doesn't actually respond to what I am saying.
Because it is ok in your special campaign?
Special campaign? Try normal campaign. And I've gone into a lot of detail on that issue. That I think it is fine IN YOUR AVERAGE GAME. Forget what is on paper - TRY THE SPELL.
Because polymorph or power attack or arcane strike are... kooky power munchkin builds or something?
Polymorph is broken. It's one of only a handful of spells that even WOTC thinks is busted. You know this, I know this, and just about everyone knows Polymorph has some issues, and WOTC is suggesting that people not even use the spell. Do you need a cite for that, or were you here for that debate?
Arcane strike is fine. Go ahead and try this spell, with that feat, in a game and see how it works out. I bet you find it works out just fine and is not broken.
I want to engage with your argument. I really do. It is just terribly weak, as it consists solely of assertion. That is it. No counterbuilds of other powerful 2nd level spells. I mean, throw me a bone?
Because I am tired of the debate. Nothing new has been said by your side or mine in weeks now. How long do we carry this on? Until you feel you have won? Until you also tire of it?
You want a counter build? How about a scorching ray build that is equally powerful, or a silent image shadow mage build that is equally powerful. Would that make you feel WS is okay again, or just result in you nitpicking how unique those particular builds are instead? I mean, where does it end?
Oh, you do attempt to shift the debate:
"To summarize, some of us were arguing that the spell should be evaluated for your average spell caster. As to why that would be a fair criteria, read elsewhere. I really can't keep going around and around like this."
SHIFT? That has been my point from day one. I don't appreciate the accusation.
Meaning, only look at WS and your average caster, ie not a EK build.[q/uote]
How about go ahead and PLAY the build rather than write a treatise on the theory of it?
This is manifestly absurd. Create a 1st level spell that doubles melee damage for 1 round/level and is a immediate spell. Also all crits are auto-confirmed and you get +4 to hit. For your average wiz this is "balanced" because they suck in melee even with this spell. For a EK or any wiz melee build it is nutsoid powerful.
To state the obvious: IF A SPELL IS TOO POWERFUL FOR THE PC'S IT IS INTENDED FOR, IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT IT IS BALANCED FOR OTHER TYPES OF CASTERS WHO CAN'T USE IT EFFECTIVELY.
A spell is balanced against all typical builds or it is not. And to claim EK - in the PH for goodness sake - is not a standard build is crazy.
Again, just a repeat of stuff said by you and others for over a month now. What more resposne do you want? You want me to just repeat my last response again?
