Wraithstrike balance evaluation examples

[Rystil Arden]

I just realized it got to a stalemate. Just as you think my opinion cannot change, I think yours cannot change.

I may disagree with Mistwell on Wraithstrike itself (and in a good number of the other arguments in that post, a few of which involve statements that are patently false, such as that there were never builds discussed that abuse Wraithstrike below level 12), but I agree with him here.

There is no way to convince him that Wraithstrike is overpowered. I've debated before with people who think that Persistent Divine Metamagic is not overpowered, people who think that the Dweomercheater of Mystra is not overpowered, and all sorts of other people who don't think particularly broken rules bits are broken, and time and time again, no matter how clear or convincing I thought my argument was with solid proof presented, and no matter how much the other side was forced to hedge on 'reasonable doubt' and smoke and mirror tactics without presenting any direct evidence, I have only once actually convinced the other side that they were incorrect (and I will always respect that poster greatly for the ability to consider what I said for possible veracity, rather than just looking at it to try to find the best way to throw a counterargument).

I guess the point is--and Mistwell and I agree on this one--you're not going to get Mistwell to change his mind. Fortunately, that's okay--the point of this thread is to help people who don't know either way, and in that sense, I think we're fine to stop here without any more of this back-and-forth. The anti-Wraithstrike side has provided builds, statistics, anecdotes of the problem, and more. From the pro-Wraithstrike camp, we see the following three arguments, in essence (with my commentary below each one).

1) Wraithstrike is not actually a problem, despite everything you've just shown. Every possible thing that could combine with Wraithstrike is the problem.

Commentary--this seems a bit naive: none of those other things will break the game if you just remove Wraithstrike, and it isn't like you're going to remove, for instance, Power Attack. Still, I like this argument because it at least admits that Wraithstrike + Power Attack is broken.

2) If you play in a 'normal' campaign like mine, where there aren't any Fighter-Mages, and the ones that exist never take Power Attack, then it's fine--If you make a Fighter-Mage with Power Attack, you're dumpster diving through all sorts of supplements to create an optimised power build, much like X Build that I'll mention.

Commentary--An onlooker can decide whether the proposed definition of a 'normal' campaign by the pro-Wraithstrike side is actually normal at all, or anything like her own campaign. If this definition actually is accurate (which I *highly* doubt, but I could be off-base), then the pro-Wraithstrikers are correct for that onlooker--she won't have a problem with the spell. Everyone else should avoid it and the havoc it will wreak...unless (see below!)

3) Yeah, so it does enough damage to guarantee a one-round kill of an enemy 4 CR above our EL if I use it or to guarantee my PC's death if the bad guys use it. So what? Every character in my game has found some combo like that

Commentary--This is sort of the opposite of #2 and is held by different people on the pro-Wraithstrike side, although the two arguments also sometimes meet in the middle in pointing out other broken builds. Disregarding the fact that the WS break is easier and simpler to exploit than most others, If an onlooker's game has already escalated to the point that everybody is using builds from the WotC CharOp board, then the pro-Wraithstrike people are correct for that person as well--Wraithstrike won't make the game any worse off than it was before.


So I guess the main point is that there's enough here for an onlooker to decide whether Wraithstrike will be a problem for them (like I imagine it will for most games), and since neither side will budge, we might as well give it a rest. This is probably the last from me on the topic unless something interesting emerges.

 

[sithramir]

I'm not sure whos' trying to argue that it's not overpowered but in my games i've seen several builds which are insane using wraith strike. If you removed wraith strike or made it say 4th level then these builds would be much more balanced with it.

I'd love to argue that it needs to be removed but I look at all the other powerful stuff out and I think it's just another thing that's too powerful. Martial adept classes are insanely powerful, there are some really powerful prestige classes, and a lot of easy mixes that get quite powerful.

They way I look at things is this: If we made it 3rd level would it still be used a lot? If it was 4th level? I'd say yes which means it's probably a bit too powerful.

My group banned ring of evasion because every character had one at higher levels because it was so cheap, worked with armour, and was just powerful. I asked if I made it 50000 would they still buy it? They said yes. It made me think it is an issue.

So if you validly think making it third level or fouth level would make people not use it then it's probably fine if a bit powerful. If you'd use it even at third of fourth level then it should be that level because the idea is that there should be a comprable spell worth memorizing in place of it. A fighter/caster type might rather have a dim door, ray deflection, etc. However, at second level it is easy to fit a few wraith strike's in.

 

[Mistwell]

I may disagree with Mistwell on Wraithstrike itself (and in a good number of the other arguments in that post, a few of which involve statements that are patently false, such as that there were never builds discussed that abuse Wraithstrike below level 12), but I agree with him here.

There is no way to convince him that Wraithstrike is overpowered. I've debated before with people who think that Persistent Divine Metamagic is not overpowered, people who think that the Dweomercheater of Mystra is not overpowered, and all sorts of other people who don't think particularly broken rules bits are broken, and time and time again, no matter how clear or convincing I thought my argument was with solid proof presented, and no matter how much the other side was forced to hedge on 'reasonable doubt' and smoke and mirror tactics without presenting any direct evidence, I have only once actually convinced the other side that they were incorrect (and I will always respect that poster greatly for the ability to consider what I said for possible veracity, rather than just looking at it to try to find the best way to throw a counterargument).

I guess the point is--and Mistwell and I agree on this one--you're not going to get Mistwell to change his mind. Fortunately, that's okay--the point of this thread is to help people who don't know either way, and in that sense, I think we're fine to stop here without any more of this back-and-forth. The anti-Wraithstrike side has provided builds, statistics, anecdotes of the problem, and more. From the pro-Wraithstrike camp, we see the following three arguments, in essence (with my commentary below each one).

1) Wraithstrike is not actually a problem, despite everything you've just shown. Every possible thing that could combine with Wraithstrike is the problem.

Commentary--this seems a bit naive: none of those other things will break the game if you just remove Wraithstrike, and it isn't like you're going to remove, for instance, Power Attack. Still, I like this argument because it at least admits that Wraithstrike + Power Attack is broken.

2) If you play in a 'normal' campaign like mine, where there aren't any Fighter-Mages, and the ones that exist never take Power Attack, then it's fine--If you make a Fighter-Mage with Power Attack, you're dumpster diving through all sorts of supplements to create an optimised power build, much like X Build that I'll mention.

Commentary--An onlooker can decide whether the proposed definition of a 'normal' campaign by the pro-Wraithstrike side is actually normal at all, or anything like her own campaign. If this definition actually is accurate (which I *highly* doubt, but I could be off-base), then the pro-Wraithstrikers are correct for that onlooker--she won't have a problem with the spell. Everyone else should avoid it and the havoc it will wreak...unless (see below!)

3) Yeah, so it does enough damage to guarantee a one-round kill of an enemy 4 CR above our EL if I use it or to guarantee my PC's death if the bad guys use it. So what? Every character in my game has found some combo like that

Commentary--This is sort of the opposite of #2 and is held by different people on the pro-Wraithstrike side, although the two arguments also sometimes meet in the middle in pointing out other broken builds. Disregarding the fact that the WS break is easier and simpler to exploit than most others, If an onlooker's game has already escalated to the point that everybody is using builds from the WotC CharOp board, then the pro-Wraithstrike people are correct for that person as well--Wraithstrike won't make the game any worse off than it was before.


So I guess the main point is that there's enough here for an onlooker to decide whether Wraithstrike will be a problem for them (like I imagine it will for most games), and since neither side will budge, we might as well give it a rest. This is probably the last from me on the topic unless something interesting emerges.

You've mischaracterized the other side of this debate. That's okay. I'm not going to correct it, since the actual posts are there for folks to read and decide for themselves.

Let's let it drop.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm not sure whos' trying to argue that it's not overpowered but in my games i've seen several builds which are insane using wraith strike. If you removed wraith strike or made it say 4th level then these builds would be much more balanced with it.

I'd love to argue that it needs to be removed but I look at all the other powerful stuff out and I think it's just another thing that's too powerful. Martial adept classes are insanely powerful, there are some really powerful prestige classes, and a lot of easy mixes that get quite powerful.

They way I look at things is this: If we made it 3rd level would it still be used a lot? If it was 4th level? I'd say yes which means it's probably a bit too powerful.

My group banned ring of evasion because every character had one at higher levels because it was so cheap, worked with armour, and was just powerful. I asked if I made it 50000 would they still buy it? They said yes. It made me think it is an issue.

So if you validly think making it third level or fouth level would make people not use it then it's probably fine if a bit powerful. If you'd use it even at third of fourth level then it should be that level because the idea is that there should be a comprable spell worth memorizing in place of it. A fighter/caster type might rather have a dim door, ray deflection, etc. However, at second level it is easy to fit a few wraith strike's in.

I think the best "fix", if your opinion is that it needs a fix, is to have it apply only to your next single attack in the round. Or, you could make it an attack like a force attack that does not count your strength or power attack. Or both even. I don't think you need to change the spell level.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Incorrect. Two people said they tried it. Of those, one said they banned it after one session, the other said they were using it AND SO FAR IT HAS NOT BEEN OVERPOWERED but it LOOKED LIKE IT WAS PROBABLY GOING TO BE OVERPOWERED in future levels.

That's it. A grand total of two people, neither of whom found the spell overpowered yet over a long period of time.

To echo you, "Not true." I believe you're missing my posts (though they were a long time ago). I played with it for three levels or so in Living Greyhawk (which takes more play time than three levels in a typical core rules campaign--IIRC it was six to eight months and may have averaged a game every week or two) and noticed it to be dramatically overpowered. (I also wrote a mod where the villain used it and it was overpowered there too). I was glad when it was finally banned in the Living Greyhawk campaign and I would definitely not allow it in any campaign I run.

 

[hong]

You've mischaracterized the other side of this debate. That's okay. I'm not going to correct it, since the actual posts are there for folks to read and decide for themselves.

Let's let it drop.

Correct.

Shut up, Mistwell.

 

[Iku Rex]

I disagree, and there was no reason for being personal about it. Make your point, don't just attack me.

You keep emphasizing how there's disagreement and how your opinion differs with ours. You've made yourself an authority in an argument from authority. If your posts show you avoiding opposing arguments and refusing to justify your claims that makes your opinion worthless.

I didn't make such demands, I simply said it was easier to discuss the specifics rather than the generalities.

You demanded "a specific actual build". Repeatedly.

It got rid of, for example, all those claims that the spell was overpowered at lower levels (which it clearly is not, since people couldn't seem to even theoretically make a build at levels below 12th that was overpowered).

That's not true. If you're read this thread you know it's not true. I posted a 9th level build on the first page. The reason the first build was 12th level was not that I "couldn't seem to even theoretically make a build at levels below 12th that was overpowered*", but rather that, like I said in the OP, it's a good build to showcase wraithstrike with. Of course, I'm one of those whacky weirdos who doesn't think balance can be disregarded once you go past level 8. I know you disagree about that.

*The whole point is that wraithstrike, not "builds", are overpowered.

I responded to them. You didn't like the response. But that doesn't mean I ignored it.

An example. You claimed I had "[built] around [wraithstrike]". People told you that you were wrong. What did you do? http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3298600&postcount=59

In the middle of some unrelated ranting about "standard builds" you repeat the claim that "it's totally focused on a melee-attacking mage with multiple attacks per round hitting as a touch attack". No explanation why. No attempt to show it to be underpowered or unplayable without touch attacks.

This is not "debating". It's "announcing". We don't care about your conclusions. You're not that important. We want to know how you arrived at your conclusions.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Does no one agree with my comment? That something being (or not being) "over powered" is largely due to each specific campaign?

I've played in campaigns where Wraithstrike is a puny combination. I've played in campaigns where it is really powerful (if it were allowed... actually, if the spell was out at that time ). The typical type of campaign I play in, WS would not be considered overpowered... Powerful, but not overpowerful. YMMV.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Does no one agree with my comment? That something being (or not being) "over powered" is largely due to each specific campaign?

I've played in campaigns where Wraithstrike is a puny combination. I've played in campaigns where it is really powerful (if it were allowed... actually, if the spell was out at that time ). The typical type of campaign I play in, WS would not be considered overpowered... Powerful, but not overpowerful. YMMV.

I totally agree--RigaMortus, you are the main exemplar of my Argument #3 in the long post, and as I said, Wraithstrike is fine if your campaign is actually like that

 

[Nail]

Considering the lack of discussion on this thread, we should probably have it locked now.