Writers strike is a go

[Storm Raven]

You brought up the issue of health care benefits and unions, relative to THIS discussion. I brought up the fact that the unions involved in THIS discussion don't give the benefits you are talking about. And you don't think that is relevant to this discussion?

I brought up health insurance in response to a poster claiming that most unions don't do anything to help the middle-class stay insured - a claim which is clearly false since the bulk of "working class" unions mae health insurance a big priority. I noted as an aside that WGA members are entitled to health insurance whereas animation and reality show writers typically are not, but the actual issue concerns unions working to get health insurance for their members in general.

 

[Storm Raven]

In my opinion, you just proved my point.

I said it would be a ULP to do so. You just quoted the ULP claim. If it went down the way the union says, they will win and the Producers will pay buckets in penalties (hence the "illegal to do that" part). If it didn't go down the way the union claims, then their allegation was false. Any way you look at it, THAT is the ULP I was talking about! It's illegal to fire someone for attempting to join a union, and if you do fire someone for doing it you get an Unfair Labor Practices claim slapped on you for breaking the law. Much like it's illegal to steal something and if you do steal something you get a theft charge slapped on you for breaking the law.

Your point was that studios fire reality show writers who try to join the WGA? Because that's what happened here.

 

[Mistwell]

I brought up health insurance in response to a poster claiming that most unions don't do anything to help the middle-class stay insured - a claim which is clearly false since the bulk of "working class" unions mae health insurance a big priority. I noted as an aside that WGA members are entitled to health insurance whereas animation and reality show writers typically are not, but the actual issue concerns unions working to get health insurance for their members in general.

But what you noted about this actual topic (writers and health care) was not accurate. Your average WGA members are no more or less entitled to health insurance than your average animation writer. Animation writers are covered by the IATSE National Health and Welfare Fund.

 

[Mistwell]

Your point was that studios fire reality show writers who try to join the WGA? Because that's what happened here.

No, that is the claim made by the union, not the finding of facts. If the union can prove their claim, they will get huge penalties and damages against the Producers. That's how all legal systems work - you make an allegation, you bring your claim, and you see if your claim proves out.

My point was that it would be illegal to fire someone for trying to join the WGA. And in my opinion, linking to a ULP claim against the Producers for doing that sort of thing IS my point - that is how you punish this kind of illegal act, by filing an ULP claim. The union is even quoting the law that I am referring to in their filing.

 

[Storm Raven]

No, that is the claim made by the union, not the finding of facts. If the union can prove their claim, they will get huge penalties and damages against the Producers. That's how all legal systems work - you make an allegation, you bring your claim, and you see if your claim proves out.

My point was that it would be illegal to fire someone for trying to join the WGA. And in my opinion, linking to a ULP claim against the Producers for doing that sort of thing IS my point - that is how you punish this kind of illegal act, by filing an ULP claim. The union is even quoting the law that I am referring to in their filing.

Oh wait, Nickelodeon did it too. Your house of cards seems to be falling apart.

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowl...each_other_it_happened_at_spongebob_70634.asp

 

[Piratecat]

You sure do a great job impersonating a corporate shill online.

See ya.

Folks, don't be rude to one another. It's possible to disagree without coming across as a jerk.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Your point was that studios fire reality show writers who try to join the WGA? Because that's what happened here.

His original point was that Reality Show writers could join the guild if they wanted to, but it would not necessarily be advantageous for them. And yes, studios can fire writers for wanting to join the union; he didn't dispute that, but rather that action's legality.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

First, they do not want to join WGA. They could at any time. There is nothing at all stopping them from joining. In fact, it would be illegal to try and stop any animator or reality show writer from joining the WGA.

Obviously anyone can join the WGA, provided they meet the proper criteria. The issue is that reality show writers and animation writers are not covered for those particular jobs by the guild. So, sure, if they have a job writing for scripted television, they'd benefit from anything that any other WGA member did. If they continue to work on "The Moment of Truth", though, the WGA wouldn't be able to provide them with any kind of protection.

Basically, the only people working in reality shows and animation that can get any kind of WGA coverage are those who are also working in other WGA covered fields- scripted television, movies. But let's be clear- it's not like those jobs are a dime a dozen.

As for not wanting to be covered- we can go back and forth with "he said, she said" here, but from the (admittedly small) number of people I know involved in that particular facet of the industry, as well as from things I've read and heard, there are plenty of writers on "reality shows" who would love nothing more than to be considered eligible to join the WGA on the basis of their work on reality shows, which is all that many of them do.

Second, animation writers DO belong to another union. It's the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees (IATSE).

I stand informed. As I noted, though, I really am not all that familiar with animation writers or their situation. It's really only the reality show writers and the WGA that I have any familiarity with.

WGA was literally trying to steal IATSE members by force, using the production contract to do it.

I'll take a look at that link. I remember reading that one of the WGA frontmen was also an animation writer and wanted to join the WGA- maybe that's the guy you're talking about.

Third, as for reality show writers, it's an incredibly complex issue. I'll try to sum it up simply: the people who write reality shows almost always also produce them, and direct them, and edit them, and even act in them sometimes!

Wow- overstate much? The writers on these shows are not, by and large, the producers, editors, and/or directors and actors.

The hyphenates you are talking about are, as you say, generally members already of one or more guilds and thus aren't a point of concern here. It's the uncovered writers that are- and those are the majority.

 

[Felon]

Woah there. You apparently didn't read the post I was responding to, because if you did, you'd know how silly the little diatribe you just made really is.

I brought up health insurance in response to a poster claiming that most unions don't do anything to help the middle-class stay insured - a claim which is clearly false since the bulk of "working class" unions mae health insurance a big priority.

I guess you didn't read the post you replied to either. I actually didn't claim that most unions don't provide health care. What I said was that there is a growing trend of businesses dropping any form of health care.

For all the indignation you've expressed about the producers' misrepresentations, it is irksome that you have exhibited a cavalier attitude about how you represent other people. It does not serve to enhance credibility.

 

[Mistwell]

Wow- overstate much? The writers on these shows are not, by and large, the producers, editors, and/or directors and actors.

I didn't overstate it. Yes, they are those other things. I know many of them. There is even one that is a poster on another board I frequent, though she doesn't tell people what she does. The writers on reality shows are in fact usually at least one of those other things, though sometimes they don't even get a credit for one of the other jobs (in fact, OFTEN they don't get credit for all roles they play, just one of them). I was describing the standard for that industry, though there are some exceptions. You can see some of these folks on a couple of cable station shows sometimes (I saw one on Kennedy's show for example), and they talk about how many different hats they have to wear when working reality shows. That is the nature of that industry, due to how low the budgets are.

Here, I will give you an example. I found this completely randomly in IMDB (not one of the ones I know). Jonathan Murray is listed as a Director, a Writer, and a Producer for this "Real World/Road Rules Challenge: The Inferno" show. That's not unusual.

The hyphenates you are talking about are, as you say, generally members already of one or more guilds and thus aren't a point of concern here. It's the uncovered writers that are- and those are the majority.

I was not talking about hyphenate writers when speaking of reality shows, at least not in the traditional usage of that word in the industry. As you said, a traditional hyphenate is covered under a union contract of some sort. Reality show folks however, who don't necessarily know what kind of job they will be doing for a particular day well in advance, are not the traditional hyphenates you're referring to.