D&D 5E WTF Wizards of the Coast? *RANT* (video link)

[Blue]

So what I am hearing here is that you got the books and you paid for the online tool subscription.

How exactly is that not a win for WotC?

Let me repost what I said with a little highlighting.

I made the choice of continuing to buy books, or continuing to pay for the online tools. I chose the online tools.

Hopefully that clears things up on what I did say.

And the subscription can be a win for WotC, I don't know their profit/loss for losing print sales and gaining an online subscription. All I said is that my book purchasing went away and instead I got the online subscription that was a better value for me.

 

[feartheminotaur]

Nah, I'll leave the "ASSumptions" to your posts, which are chock full of them. I stand by my assessment, which isn't really swayed by your randomly capitalized and abrasive insistence that a supported digital product line branded by a major multinational corporation is the same as hobbyist app development.

Bottom line: If WoTC and their owners thought they could make enough money to justify the costs, they would do so. The fact that they haven't despite demand is a pretty good indication they don't think it's worth it. No matter what some self proclaimed successful businessman anonymously demands on the Internet.

But hey, if you've got that much business acumen and you think this is a market that has never occurred to WoTC, or a billion dollar a year business like Hasbro, then maybe you should seek a license and make all that sweet, sweet app money for yourself.

 

[Shasarak]

Hopefully that clears things up on what I did say.

Not really, let me highlight the important word:

I made the choice of continuing to buy books, or continuing to pay for the online tools. I chose the online tools. The rules lookup was very handy during sessions, the (original offline) character builder was decent, and plus I got the magazines.

Which means, to me, that you had already purchased the book(s) as well as being subscribed which means that not only did WotC already get your money for your original purchases but they continued to get money for your subscription - even when they were making books that you would not actually buy.

Now let me be clear, I play with friends that did not buy any books in 3e, did not buy any books in 4e and have not bought any books in 5e and yet they can still make characters to play so the fact that you are willing to pay a subscription as well as having (at least) one of the books is head and shoulders above what they do.

And the subscription can be a win for WotC, I don't know their profit/loss for losing print sales and gaining an online subscription. All I said is that my book purchasing went away and instead I got the online subscription that was a better value for me.

Realistically producing books like Martial Power 2 are going to have a drastically reduced target audience then the core rules but with your subscription you pay for it even if you are not using a martial character. That you still consider that to be a good deal makes it a win-win for both you and WotC.

 

[Jester David]

The cost of making an app is still underestimated.
During the Codename: Morningstar Kickstarter, Trapdoor Tech revealed they had spent $1.2 million getting the app working and needed $400,000 to finish and add Pathfinder rules.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/trapdoortech/codename-morningstar/posts/108997

That's million dollars over six months to a year. Getting an app out sooner drastically increases the price. Nothing for WotC but a lot for D&D and its team, especially since they'd need to hire all new staff and buy all new hardware.
But even then, it's spending a million dollars (plus) for the *chance* to maybe make a profit eventually.

 

[Blue]

The subscription wasn't offered the first day 4e came out. I bought the core books and a few others before the subscription came out. When it came out was the question of should I buy new books that came out, subscribe and get everything new (plus old, plus tools, plus baked in errata, plus add'l magazine content), or do both.

I did the subscription.

In other words, when the subscription became available it stopped my purchase of printed books, exactly as I said.

And sure, some people don't buy anything, but that doesn't describe me. Looking at the wall of 3ed books I have, I'm more inclusive. I just walked over and counted, and I have 44 WotC hardcover 3ed books there, and that doesn't include all the 3.0 books that I replaced with 3.5 books and got rid of the 3.0 versions. I'm sure some were gifts, or big sales, but I also ran two 3ed campaigns that totaled 12 years and played a lot as well.

By comparison, my 4e is pitiful. The core 3 in a bundle, and few others. In some ways I was their perfect target for the subscription since I appreciated access to everything. On the other hand I was the worst target for their subscription because I probably would have purchased over 50% of the books that came out. I think it was a win/win - I got access to everything cheaper than I would have spent for just some of it, and they got $120/yr directly vs. what share is left after retail, distributor, printing, etc.

I can say that they offered the subscription and it made enough money for them to continue it for years, including development work on the software tools and monthly articles for the two magazines so it wasn't just a few hundred people. My own personal experience was that it removed the need for me to also purchase books. I'm sure some did the subscription and bought books, but I'm also sure that many who were paying the subscription cut down or eliminated additional book purchases since they were already paying the subscription.

 

[Shasarak]

And likewise my 4e collection is very small and on the other hand that had nothing to do with my subscription and everything to do with the quality of book being produced.

 

[Queer Venger]

Other than the desire to 'make money' which one would think is a factor in being in business. As a business, it is their obligation to constantly improve
their business model, and find new sources of revenue. To NOT do so is irresponsible.

Thus, their obligation is to the business.

Not sure I follow your logic on irresponsibility. Is a TTRPG "responsible" to give players digital toolsets?? Is it? How? And what does it mean for players who don't need them? Yes, I know Wizards is a business, but am I obligated to buy something I don't need? Are they obligated to sell me something I don't want just because they have to?

 

[Shasarak]

Are they obligated to sell me something I don't want just because they have to?

What is the difference between producing a Ravenloft adventure and a Digital Tool set?

Someone is not going to want either and just think of all that time and money they wasted.

 

[cmad1977]

/face palm

 

[CapnZapp]

EXCELLENT IDEA.



Considering that they have to delay projects when people get pulled off for jury duty, I don't think so. Considering that PF has several multiples of amount of their staff and they don't do it, I really don't think so.


Well, we can show you are wrong on the "never wanted do". One of the first 4e books I got had a CD with demo tools on it. It was years later but they did come out with a bunch of 4e tools. So they did want to do it.


Calling actual numbers a smokescreen is ... a smokescreen.


Is that because they have a record of doing that? Is it because they have staff that do that? Considering how badly some of the tools have died (and even PF had theirs die), are you sure that they could have, and that what you call a "modest budget" wouldn't have impacted the rest of the game?



Well, considering that 4e went through a character builder that had a months long bug fix list, and was months behind in implementing new features when anything new came out, it seems like doing it right and in an expandable way isn't easy.

Go ask the PCGen guys if their work was easy and something one guy could whip up in their basement.



I'm glad you know why they are doing it. Can you link the the conversation? Was it one a panel, twitter, a video release? Please give me ANYTHING that says this is what they are thinking and you didn't make this up.

Okay, BS cut - that was a good idea.

I conclude you have no idea of what you're talking about.

When I say "making a digital character sheet is easy", that's not offered as opinion. That's a fact.

Wizards do NOT get way with the "boo hoo we're too small to give you useful tools" no matter how many useful tools pop up to try to defend them.

If you want to defend them, discuss the business side, since there can be many reasons why WotC choose not to have effective digital tools.

But don't try to make it out to be a technical challenge or you'll only make a clown out of yourself.

Z

PS. The easiest way to have a full suite of digital players and DM aids would be for WotC to do nothing, and yet I expect fully functional tools to be released within the WEEK.

That is to say "go ahead, Internet, we won't cease and desist you if you make D&D tools available to everybody free of charge"

Technically, it's easy. Making money out of it is an entirely different matter.