Wulf's Collected Story Hour -- FINAL UPDATE 12/25

[Wulf Ratbane]

Not to put pressure on wulf but he can't die an untimely death, he has to survive to the end of the game/campaign.

I'd like to survive it, too-- or at least make sure it means something when I go. I'm doing what I can there but, hey, we're talking about a RBDM here.

[/b] Also I still miss Halma...I like Shorty but where was he?[/B]

I can't remember the last time ALL of the characters were present for a game. We always seem to either be down Shorty (which means no big whammy) or Dorn (which means no big healing.... err, and no big whammy, either, come to think of it.)

Didn't dinkledog give you a cover bonus on your save vs lightning, what with being buried under a steel predator and a dire bear? What a RBDM

I didn't complain at the time, it was a reasonable ruling. Afterwards I decided that, at least in my own game, players will always get saving throws. Even when they're helpless. If I was inclined to deny any part of the equation, it would be the evasion. That might not kick off, but at least the basic save should represent a hefty portion of heroic luck; ie, half damage if you're lucky.

I always feel bad when Alliane gets hurt or killed. She's always seemed like a graceful, innocent follower, who always gets yanked into terrible danger by people who she should know better than to trust.

That's remarkably insightful. I think that I will steal it lock-stock-and-barrel for the next update.

That, and my mental picture of her is of a hot female elf. ...She is hot, right?

Hmm. Right. Myself, I reckon she's the spittin' image of her cousin: haughty, horse-faced, and androgynous, like all them elves. Can't tell 'em apart, all look the same to me, so if I get lonely and start to miss her in the night, I can always throw a leg over Keldas.

There, yer feel better now?


Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

In what's sure to spark board wars, I went the opposite way. In a grapple, a player loses their dex bonus to outside influences.

So no DEX bonus and thus no Reflex save for the bad guys when they are flat-footed?

So if the caster is faster on initiative or he's invisible, they're screwed.

Interesting...

FWIW I can see your point on this one, but I think your rationale there is a bit screwy.

Lately I have had a tendency to argue with you at the table a lot more (I was pretty good about this in the early days but I have been pretty bad lately) but this is a perfect example of where I'm usually coming from. It's not the rulings that confound me at times, it's where you're coming from on them. I just like the underpinnings of the rules to be rock-solid.

I am sure you don't mean to say that someone who is denied their DEX bonus doesn't get a Reflex save. I would take a look over the condition summary in the DMG and figure out exactly which ones should deny a save. Personally I'd start at "helpless." Even "pinned" characters aren't completely helpless (you can't coup de grace a pinned character, for example).

And as I said above, I think it's more appropriate to deny evasion than to deny the entire saving throw...


Wulf

 

[Plane Sailing]

That's an interesting point there Wulf

I would take a look over the condition summary in the DMG and figure out exactly which ones should deny a save. Personally I'd start at "helpless." Even "pinned" characters aren't completely helpless (you can't coup de grace a pinned character, for example).

I'd not thought about it before, but I guess it would be reasonable to deny a reflex saving throw to anyone that could be subject to a coup-de-grace. Someone who is magically "held" or paralysed? certainly. Someone who is tied to a tree? probably.

Maybe the appropriate consideration is whether their Dex is effectively 0, and nobody can make a reflex save if their dex is effectively 0?

Denying evasion in a grapple I can understand:

From the SRD
As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area (crawling through a 2 1/2-foot-wide shaft, for example) cannot use evasion.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.

While grappled, certainly while pinned, a character could be reasonably considered to not have the room needed to move enough.

(n.b. I only brought the subject up because I had the mental picture of a 4ft dwarf buried under two Huge beasts, with barely any of him sticking out )

 

[Squire James]

Wulf had plausible "hard cover" (in fact, better "hard cover" than a wall!) he should have been allowed the chance to hide behind, as represented by a Reflex save WITH evasion. If he were pinned, I'd STILL grant the save (he still has lightning-immune cover) though I'd disallow Evasion.

I should note I am VERY reluctant to deny someone a Reflex save, because there are literally zero cases I can think of where someone might be denied a Fortitude or Will save. So why should Reflex be any different?

 

[drunkadelic]

I should note I am VERY reluctant to deny someone a Reflex save, because there are literally zero cases I can think of where someone might be denied a Fortitude or Will save. So why should Reflex be any different?

Wow that's a really good point, Squire! You've certainly changed my mind about the matter. If the saves are supposed to be balanced, why nerf Reflex? Personally, from now on unless there is a condition that reduces the related score to zero (like being held) I'm going to allow my characters saves all the time.

Although I see Dinkeldog's rationale. I'm a terribly visual mechanics-driven person myself.

But the balance issue is what brought me around, i guess.

Anyways, great update!

 

[Gumby]

Hmm. Right. Myself, I reckon she's the spittin' image of her cousin: haughty, horse-faced, and androgynous, like all them elves. Can't tell 'em apart, all look the same to me, so if I get lonely and start to miss her in the night, I can always throw a leg over Keldas.

There, yer feel better now?
Wulf

Oh, profoundly so. Thanks.

 

[paulewaug]

Hmm. Right. Myself, I reckon she's the spittin' image of her cousin: haughty, horse-faced, and androgynous, like all them elves. Can't tell 'em apart, all look the same to me, so if I get lonely and start to miss her in the night, I can always throw a leg over Keldas.

There, yer feel better now?


Wulf

:LOL
oh my... that is too funny! I really did laugh out loud!
What a picture!!

Also,
I have been teasing the elf players in our group about their elves not just being androgynous but of actually being hermaphrodites!!!
hehe

although I must admit that I always imagined her as being kinda hot too..
at least pretty anyhow..ya know- for an elf


edit to say: wow that is a very quotable statment, the same one quoted twice in a row! keep up the good work!

 

[Jeremy]

"Gone Fishing for an Update..."

<tosses his premium tankard lure over the side with the guaranteed to work on drow or dwarves adamantine sinker...>

 

[Dinkeldog]

Whee! Another rules argument while we're waiting for Wulf to get back to work.

He was grappling with a creature that is immune to electricity pretty much because his resistance is ~0 (as opposed to say a blue dragon who is immune, but probably because his resistance approaches infinity). The steel predator holding him would actually enjoy having the electricity dance through him and right into the one he was holding. No cover bonus there. Grappling a blue dragon, I'd probably go the cover bonus (unless pinned), but not in this case.

Places where will saves should probably be disallowed: sleeping (except for dream-affecting spells), comatose, insane (or Wis = 0). So if you can find a sleeping enemy, I'd probably give up a domination, charm, or most other will saves automatically, especially if things aren't becoming violent.

Places where fort saves should probably be disallowed: that's a bit harder. I'd look at things on a case-by-case basis, I guess.

That's an interesting point there Wulf



I'd not thought about it before, but I guess it would be reasonable to deny a reflex saving throw to anyone that could be subject to a coup-de-grace. Someone who is magically "held" or paralysed? certainly. Someone who is tied to a tree? probably.

Maybe the appropriate consideration is whether their Dex is effectively 0, and nobody can make a reflex save if their dex is effectively 0?

Denying evasion in a grapple I can understand:



While grappled, certainly while pinned, a character could be reasonably considered to not have the room needed to move enough.

(n.b. I only brought the subject up because I had the mental picture of a 4ft dwarf buried under two Huge beasts, with barely any of him sticking out )

 

[Halma]

Brutal Seething Surge

Whee! Another rules argument while we're waiting for Wulf to get back to work.

He was grappling with a creature that is immune to electricity pretty much because his resistance is ~0 (as opposed to say a blue dragon who is immune, but probably because his resistance approaches infinity). The steel predator holding him would actually enjoy having the electricity dance through him and right into the one he was holding. No cover bonus there. Grappling a blue dragon, I'd probably go the cover bonus (unless pinned), but not in this case.

Places where will saves should probably be disallowed: sleeping (except for dream-affecting spells), comatose, insane (or Wis = 0). So if you can find a sleeping enemy, I'd probably give up a domination, charm, or most other will saves automatically, especially if things aren't becoming violent.

Places where fort saves should probably be disallowed: that's a bit harder. I'd look at things on a case-by-case basis, I guess.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20544

Hey Dink and any others that are interested, I put a Thread up arguing the Brutal Seething Surge's impact on our game. I wouldn't mind your input into this as well.... Is it broken?

Halma "the Dead Barbarian"