XP As Will To Power?

JoeGKushner said:
But why?

If you have access to the best equipment and the best trainers, you tend to be one of the best. Boxers don't idle the hours away between bouts. Runners don't wait just for their one moment in the sun to run. In the old days, sword schools weren't invented by peopel who went out and killed bandits for fun and profit. (Well, not always...)

It's one of the reasons I was thinking of Will to Power. Why isn't training more effective?

Because the D&D ruleset is still mostly a modified set of miniature battle rules rather than a true role playing game and the XP rules only cover fighting unless the DM uses "ad hoc" XP. It's always been one of my biggest gripes with D&D and one of the things I always write up house rules for.

Umbran said:
1) It means the heroes are not special. Anybody can (and will) get to where the heroes are just by practicing, without having history or stories behind them. That's not entertaining enough for me.

Funny, I have the same resoning but that's why it's exciting to me. If your character is special and the only one capable of gaining XP, then it's no longer entertaining because the world is that much less challenging. As a player and DM, I prefer to have all PCs and NPCs play by the same rules so that when the PC gets good, he has earned it fairly and has to actually earn his specialness rather than have it given to them right off the bat with no effort.
 

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Umbran said:
3) "Epicness" (which shares some similarities to Robert Jordan's "tav'eren") helps describe why the PCs go up against greater and greater challenges, and why low-level PCs generally don't run into things they cannot handle unless they are stupid. There's no particular reason why a mundanely trained 15th or 20th level fighter should not just encounter normal orc for all of his existance. There's no particular reason why all the 1st level characters don't meet great wyrms. If, having accrued (or revealed, in WayneLigon's case) "epicness" alters fate, so that these higher level people keep running into greater and greater challenges than the less-epic populace, all this is nicely explained.
Hmm, stolen.

This is perfect for describing the consistency of these sorts of things to those who have never played D&D before, or just end up questioning THAT WHICH WE DO NOT SPEAK OF. :p

So why do PCs go out and earn XP?

Well, don't the 1st-level Commoners who end up as war conscripts earn XP, too? Of course, they usually die before hitting 3rd-level if the war lasts that long, but I'd imagine that after a few battles a peasant might come home from war with a Warrior level added on. I use an alternate system for NPC XP progression during wartime in Pledge of Tyranny (since the PC is an aspiring commander and the NPC Evendur is an aspiring tactician, there are a lot of these kinds of battles with mostly low-level NPCs in the field).
 

painandgreed said:
As a player and DM, I prefer to have all PCs and NPCs play by the same rules

Slow down there partner! Who says the PCs and NPCs play by different rules? I sure didn't.

All this means is that the NPCs who are just as good (or better) than the PCs have all done things to attain their levels. They didn't sit back in a training hall doing push-ups and running fencing drills. They all have a story with depth and excitement. They've all earned it through action, rather than dull training. The thing that makes these characters special is not a different set of rules, but different actions in their lives.
 

shilsen said:
Keith Baker, in discussing his concept of PCs and the role of XP on the WotC Eberron boards, said that he simply views PCs as special in a way most NPCs are not. They accrue XP, go up in levels, and gain power in a way that most NPCs don't. Works for me. Call it a will to power, being chosen by the gods, etc.
Indeed. I don't see why NPCs and PCs should play by the same rules - because the rules are designed for PCs. Why should the village blacksmith magically become a better blacksmith because he happens to hit a few goblins on the head with his hammer? He should become a better blacksmith by pushing himself to become better at his trade - studying new techniques, creating more difficult objects - or never advance at all. One of my favorite points in Knights of the Old Republic 2 is when another character basically says "You don't think EVERYONE becomes incredibly powerful by killing people, do you?"

A classic example to me is the Rohirrim in Lord of the Rings. These are soldiers who have spent their entire lives hunting orcs. There is no particular reason that Eomer or Aragorn should be better that the thousand Rohirrim at their backs. But they are, because they are the heroes. They have a potential that the others - the NPCs - do not, and that's what makes the Fellowship stand out even when surrounded by a vast host of veteran soldiers. The ability to advance using the standard XP system is one of the things that brands PCs as heroes in the world. In Eberron we encourage DMS to pick NPCs to advance along with the PCs, but the idea is that these are the "heroes of the opposition" - NPCs with the same limitless potential as the PCs.

Anyhow, in short, my approach is that people have a certain potential. Not everyone who studies music will become Mozart, and killing goblins certainly won't help them. For most people, that potential is 1st-2nd level; don't forget, by the DMG demographics table, 98% of the population is 1st level. A few people rise above that, either due to innate potential or because they strive to challenge themselves and overcome these limitations - as suggested, the will to power. And then there are characters like the PCs, who have limitless potential... and who will therefore be the heroes of the age.

One last note: Eberron also has a few high-level NPCs, like the 16th-level lich who's been around for thousands of years. Thousands of years? If killing things was going to bump her up a level, I think it already would have. At the same time, once the players are reaching 16th level, she needs to improve in order to challenge them. In these cases, I like to justify the improvement with major events as opposed to traditional XP. Apparently, sixteenth level is her plateau. But perhaps she can overcome that by acquiring a powerful artifact, an ancient tome of necromantic knowledge, the blessing of a dark god, or the like. The PCs stop Vol from destroying Sharn, but she manages to escape with the Syrkarn Codex - and after researching this tome, the PCs realize that Vol will be more powerful the next time their paths cross. Basically, I want it to feel like a story: there's a reason the archvillains have suddenly become more powerful, when they've been complacent for so long.
 

Hellcow said:
Indeed. I don't see why NPCs and PCs should play by the same rules - because the rules are designed for PCs. Why should the village blacksmith magically become a better blacksmith because he happens to hit a few goblins on the head with his hammer? He should become a better blacksmith by pushing himself to become better at his trade - studying new techniques, creating more difficult objects - or never advance at all. One of my favorite points in Knights of the Old Republic 2 is when another character basically says "You don't think EVERYONE becomes incredibly powerful by killing people, do you?"

It's just sad that D&D tends to favor the latter aspect instead of the earlier one. Either the blacksmith never becomes better or well, he never becomes better. I think there are a few option rules out there in like the DMG II that might address this a touch but not a lot of official support for the blacksmith actually... learning anything.

As others have mentioned, it's one of the strengths of games like GURPS, Hero ,Tristat, where the blacksmith can be an awesome blacksmith and still get killed by a gobo.
 

I basically take Keith Baker's approach (great post BTW Keith, thanks), although I don't use "98% of NPCs are 1st level" in my 3e games anymore, I found that with the way monsters are boosted in 3e I needed to improve NPC toughness if the setting was to remain viable. So I took a table from Traveller: The New Era and now I use the following for NPCs:

1st level: Novice
2nd level: Trained
3rd level: Experienced
4th level: Veteran
5th level: Elite

So IMC most NPCs are level 1-3, averaging around 2nd, and only the rare heroic NPC ever exceeds 5th, but you do get squads of 5th level elite troops, and companies of 3rd level experienced guardsmen aren't uncommon in standing armies. However, when it comes to PCs, I let the "PC aura" enable NPCs accompanying them advance above their normal limits, should they survive long enough.
 

>>A classic example to me is the Rohirrim in Lord of the Rings. These are soldiers who have spent their entire lives hunting orcs. There is no particular reason that Eomer or Aragorn should be better that the thousand Rohirrim at their backs. But they are, because they are the heroes. They have a potential that the others - the NPCs - do not, and that's what makes the Fellowship stand out even when surrounded by a vast host of veteran soldiers.<<

IMC the Rohirrim would mostly be 3rd (Experienced) & 4th (Veteran) level Warriors, while the Fellowship heroes would be around 8th-9th level (arguably higher if I were modelling the Jackson movies where Legolas is an incredible munchkin), in PC classes. Aragorn might be 10th level Ranger-Paladin. The orcs would vary from 1st to 5th level warriors likewise, certainly the great black orcs of Mordor would average higher level than the Misty Mountain goblins.
 

When the PCs return to town with 3 of 5 party members dead and the rest beaten nigh unto it, what is it that makes them want to go out and do it again? Drive. How many actual combat experiences would most elite soldiers be directly involved in? Probably more than the PCs. But typically they're not doing so in groups of 4, so the XP split is harsher. In a less metagaming sense:

Usually militant types are maximizing large-group tactics and ways to keep soldiers as safe as possible, even if it means less kills against the enemy. One loss on your own side is not equal to one loss on the enemy's side in the minds of most soldiers and tacticians. So, they're putting themselves in less blatant danger and using larger groups to accomplish the same things, ergo less XP earned.
 

painandgreed said:
Because the D&D ruleset is still mostly a modified set of miniature battle rules rather than a true role playing game and the XP rules only cover fighting unless the DM uses "ad hoc" XP. It's always been one of my biggest gripes with D&D and one of the things I always write up house rules for.

I think it's because the designers know gamers :) Almost any other way of getting XP (other than perhaps doing it as goal-oriented XP, where you get XP based on completion of story elements or plot points) is risk-free. If that were more prevalent, people would always choose the more risk-free path and painlessly level their characters. You and your group might not, but I believe the majority of players would.

On the other hand, training was a part of RuneQuest that I liked. During long downtimes, you could check to see if your skill got better from training with an expert. It was a small chance, and cpould never go above 75%; after that, only real-world experience could raise your skill level. Of course, RQ characters started much further down on the totem pole from even your first level D&D guy, who basically has a 50% chance to hit an unarmored opponent even without stat adds, being in a warrior class, or having a good weapon. Your average farmboy RQ guy might adventure for a couple RL years to get to that point.
 

Umbran said:
Slow down there partner! Who says the PCs and NPCs play by different rules? I sure didn't.

All this means is that the NPCs who are just as good (or better) than the PCs have all done things to attain their levels. They didn't sit back in a training hall doing push-ups and running fencing drills. They all have a story with depth and excitement. They've all earned it through action, rather than dull training. The thing that makes these characters special is not a different set of rules, but different actions in their lives.


My appologies. There is a faction withint D&D that think that 1st level PCs are better than most everybody else and that most people will never gain levels let alone experience. I do not hold to that veiw and thought that you were speaking of such.
 

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