D&D General XP Awards for -- what????

[iserith]

Because mechanical player agency is important, too?
The difference between an XP and a milestone system is, that by default in an XP system the players have control over the Level advancement, they have choices, they can do everythingthat gives XP to get a new level. In a milestone system they have no control, no choices. You have to do exactly this one (or maybe two) things to get a Level.


By design Milestone is limiting player choice and agency while XP is expanding player choice and agency.

Like ... let's say pokemon. In every Pokemon Game I have full control over how much power my pokemon have by deciding how much I train them. The story is very railroady in Pokemon, but I have freedom of choice over the strength of my team. If you would put Milestones onto pokemon, like you get 10 levels for every arena you beat, Pokemon would suck, because now you have no story agency and no mechanical agency anymore.

This looks to me more like an objection to games that feature a prepared plot or path than the method by which XP is handled. It just so happens that story-based advancement is better suited to games with a prepared plot or path, whereas standard XP works better for sandboxes. In the former case, the method incentivizes the players to stay on the plot (which helps reduce and preserve the DM's prepared content). In the latter, the method incentivizes the players to do whatever it is that earns them XP (e.g. killing monsters), but otherwise doesn't push them in any other particular direction.

 

[M_Natas]

This looks to me more like an objection to games that feature a prepared plot or path than the method by which XP is handled. It just so happens that story-based advancement is better suited to games with a prepared plot or path, whereas standard XP works better for sandboxes. In the former case, the method incentivizes the players to stay on the plot (which helps reduce and preserve the DM's prepared content). In the latter, the method incentivizes the players to do whatever it is that earns them XP (e.g. killing monsters), but otherwise doesn't push them in any other particular direction.

I would say with a preplanned plot, so a railroaded adventure, XP would be better because that gives the players in one area a little more controll. If you have Milestones and a railroadstory, players have no real choices at all. Not on the story side, not on the mechanical side. It's like pokemon with Milestones again.

 

[pemerton]

@M_Natas

You talk about players having control over level advancement. But if the GM has sole authority over framing, how does that work?

 

[iserith]

I would say with a preplanned plot, so a railroaded adventure, XP would be better because that gives the players in one area a little more controll. If you have Milestones and a railroadstory, players have no real choices at all. Not on the story side, not on the mechanical side. It's like pokemon with Milestones again.

On a preplanned plot, the players having "more control" isn't necessarily ideal. In a basic game structure common to many tables, the DM prepares a plot-based game and there's nothing else much outside of it to engage with (except perhaps killing some time with intraparty banter and of course shopping). So incentivizing the players with XP to go off the script isn't a great idea. Instead, you use story-based advancement with clear "significant goals" so the players engage with the prepared content only.

I would quibble with calling a plot-based game a "railroad" though if the players have consented to following the plot to the best of their understanding. Which I think is a good topic for Session Zero if the DM wants to run such a game. Plot-based games are generally a lot less prep than a sandbox, so it's common in my experience for DMs to gravitate toward this structure. It's not my cup of tea because I find them very strange to run, but then I have more time to devote to prep than others.

 

[M_Natas]

@M_Natas

You talk about players having control over level advancement. But if the GM has sole authority over framing, how does that work?

XP as a Design Element puts by default the Control in the Player's Hand. Every Game with XP says, by just having XP, that you as the player have control over your progress.
A GM or Game Designer can of course take some of that control back by limiting what will give XP, how many opportunities there are for getting XP and so on.
But if we start by D&D 5e RAW, getting XP is a player choice. Do I fight this monster or not? Do I go looking for fights or not? (I as a DM would also increase the opportunities for XP, like for roleplaying, completing quests, finding lore, exploring ...). Now, the DM can totally limit, how many opportunities there are for killing monsters. But the DM would have to really railroad, to really limit the scope of the world to do that. He would have to put in work to take the Level Advancement away from the players.

In a milestone system, it is the opposite. By default, the DM decides, when the Players advance. Only under one certain condition (reaching the milestone), they reach the next level. Of course, the DM can put in more conditions (personal player goals, certain side quests ...) to give a little more control back, but the DM has to put in work to give the players some more agency.

With XP your start point is player agency and you have to reign that in.
With Milestones your start point is no player agency and you have to put that back in.

 

[M_Natas]

On a preplanned plot, the players having "more control" isn't necessarily ideal. In a basic game structure common to many tables, the DM prepares a plot-based game and there's nothing else much outside of it to engage with (except perhaps killing some time with intraparty banter and of course shopping). So incentivizing the players with XP to go off the script isn't a great idea. Instead, you use story-based advancement with clear "significant goals" so the players engage with the prepared content only.

Yeah, but that is forcing the players mechanical and story wise to stay on course. As a player, I wouldn't like that, to be forced to not stray away a little, not to have the opportunity to do anything else in the world. Such a game would feel like a dead world, where there is nothing outside the walls of the plot.
For playing D&D you need to create an Illusion, an Illusion of a living, existing world where you have agency in. With milestones and a fixed plot, you are killing this illusion. Your choices don't matter. You follow a preplanned path of encounters and if your dice a lucky, you succeed.
With having XP you are saying that there is the possibility to go off the rails, even if the players never take that opportunity, you say mechanically, the world is open to you. The illusion of an open world is stronger, the illusion that your choices matter is stronger.
With Milestones on the mechanical side, you take away that illusion. Your choices don't matter, the world is not open for you to explore.
The more railroady the story, the better XP help with the Illusion of choice. It will increase the game experience for the players and create a stronger illusion of a living world.

I would quibble with calling a plot-based game a "railroad" though if the players have consented to following the plot to the best of their understanding. Which I think is a good topic for Session Zero if the DM wants to run such a game. Plot-based games are generally a lot less prep than a sandbox, so it's common in my experience for DMs to gravitate toward this structure. It's not my cup of tea because I find them very strange to run, but then I have more time to devote to prep than others.

It all comes down to the Illusion of choice. Players usually hate it, when they feel that they have no choice. Even if they agree to a plot based game.
On the mechanical side, milestones don't give an illusion of choice, XP do.

So even if it is a little easier for the DM to use Milestones, XP will improve the feel of the game, improve the illusion of an open world full of adventures that is for the players to discover.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yeah, but that is forcing the players mechanical and story wise to stay on course.

Isn't that what we were arguing was the whole point of XP earlier in this same thread? Conditioning the players to do what you want?

 

[M_Natas]

Isn't that what we were arguing was the whole point of XP earlier in this same thread? Conditioning the players to do what you want?

Yeah, but Milestone is a more extreme less subtle version of that. With XP you can do x, y and z to get XP and level up. With Milestones you can only do X to level up.
XP is nudging, Milestone is forcing.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I've played in a lot of games that handled xp may different ways - the difference seems (in my experience) minimal in most cases.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yeah, but Milestone is a more extreme less subtle version of that. With XP you can do x, y and z to get XP and level up. With Milestones you can only do X to level up.
XP is nudging, Milestone is forcing.

Like I said, I level for completing player generated plots, so that's not true.