XP for Traps?

[awayfarer]

Trap are part of the challenge beign overcome - hence they award Xp.

DMG pg 39
“Overcoming the challenge of a trap involves encountering the trap, either by disarming it, avoiding it, or simply surviving the damage it deals. A trap never discovered or never bypassed was not encountered (and hence provides no XP award).”

That'll do it. Although I still feel like there's a huge difference between a CR 5 trap and a CR5 encounter. The simple fact that there's generally only one PC in a standard party that can actually deal effectively with traps makes things a little screwy.

Thanks for the responses guys. I've got mixed feelings about this but not so strongly that I'll bother monkeying around with the rules.

 

[irdeggman]

That'll do it. Although I still feel like there's a huge difference between a CR 5 trap and a CR5 encounter. The simple fact that there's generally only one PC in a standard party that can actually deal effectively with traps makes things a little screwy.

Except for magical traps where a dispel magic may also halep there is only one character who can "safely" bypass a trap - everyone can get past one by surviving it.

Just like warrior types are the ones who can best "safely" get past a melee combat, but everyone can "survive" it.

 

[Slapzilla]

Except for magical traps where a dispel magic may also halep there is only one character who can "safely" bypass a trap - everyone can get past one by surviving it.

Just like warrior types are the ones who can best "safely" get past a melee combat, but everyone can "survive" it.

Excellent points, both. Fighter types can withstand hp damaging traps. Rogue types can avoid 'em using reflex saves and spellcasters can cope with the mind muddlers best. It's generally difficult at best for the party to know who to stick in front at which door, hall and/or special tile on the floor. It is a randomizer that many players loathe. Now, if the Rogue finds and disarms all the traps without the party's aid, then I think things are different. The Rogue should shine in that case and get the xp bonus. But then you get into varying the xp awards and if you don't want to figure out special ways to give bonuses to the fighter types for a particularly grueling melee slog or the spellcasters for a spectacular series of castings, then just even it out.

My problem is, when the party first encounters a trap, they get into Search mode. The dungeon crawl slows to just that, a dice rolling crawl. How dull. A series of dice rolls that tell the story. Yuk! Of course, a Raiders of the Lost Ark style outpouring of dangerous moments and you don't need a Rogue. Balance, balance, balance.

Personally, I don't mind when one character gets to hog a bit. I make dang sure all my players get that moment (and the bonus xp) too. The Paladin rallying troops at the vangard, the Bard lifting the morale of the tired soldiers, the Cleric ministering to the wounded and the dead, the Ranger organizing the picket scouts and spying on enemy movements, all things that the Players get to shine at and have a bit of roleplaying fun. If the Rogue gets the lion's share of trap xp, fine.

 

[awayfarer]

Except for magical traps where a dispel magic may also halep there is only one character who can "safely" bypass a trap - everyone can get past one by surviving it.

Just like warrior types are the ones who can best "safely" get past a melee combat, but everyone can "survive" it.

Not really the same thing. Take a look under the trapfinding description. Rogues are called out as being the only ones capable of finding and disarming traps. Anyone can get into combat with varying degrees of success in different circumstances, but the chances of successfully finding and disarming a trap without a rogue are pretty much non-existent.

Think of it this way. Lets say there's an encounter out there known as a "jabberwocky." Monks, and only monks, are the only class given the ability to see jabberwockys. Monks have a skill that allows them to completely nullify jabberwockys with a successful skill check. No other class can even see a jabberwocky, let alone nullify one.

My point is that outside of a few very specific circumstances, trapfinding is the sole responsibility of the rogue and traps are pretty much an all or nothing encounter. Either the trap does exact some damage or it is safely disposed of and forgotten. Monster encounters are rarely so binary and are situations in which more often than not every party member can contribute something. In the vast majority of cases involving traps, non-rogues are basically useless.

Let me also add at this point that I'm not suggesting seperate XP awards for rogues. It just strikes me that traps are a bit of an odd duck. 99% of the time only one person will be of any use in a trap encounter: in combat it varies significantly.

 

[irdeggman]

Not really the same thing. Take a look under the trapfinding description. Rogues are called out as being the only ones capable of finding and disarming traps. Anyone can get into combat with varying degrees of success in different circumstances, but the chances of successfully finding and disarming a trap without a rogue are pretty much non-existent.

Think of it this way. Lets say there's an encounter out there known as a "jabberwocky." Monks, and only monks, are the only class given the ability to see jabberwockys. Monks have a skill that allows them to completely nullify jabberwockys with a successful skill check. No other class can even see a jabberwocky, let alone nullify one.

My point is that outside of a few very specific circumstances, trapfinding is the sole responsibility of the rogue and traps are pretty much an all or nothing encounter. Either the trap does exact some damage or it is safely disposed of and forgotten. Monster encounters are rarely so binary and are situations in which more often than not every party member can contribute something. In the vast majority of cases involving traps, non-rogues are basically useless.

Let me also add at this point that I'm not suggesting seperate XP awards for rogues. It just strikes me that traps are a bit of an odd duck. 99% of the time only one person will be of any use in a trap encounter: in combat it varies significantly.

Dwarves (any class) can "find" traps made of stone.

• Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.

If magical (and found) a wizard can use dispel magic to supress its effects for 1d4 rounds. (The trap has not been "disabled", it has been supressed and thus can be bypassed).


There are "other" classes that have "trapfinding" too.

Beguiler
Ninja
Scout
Spell Thief


And Prestige Classes:

Chameleon
Nightsong Infiltrator
Temple Raider of Olidammara

I'm sure there are more out there.

 

[awayfarer]

Dwarves (any class) can "find" traps made of stone.

If magical (and found) a wizard can use dispel magic to supress its effects for 1d4 rounds. (The trap has not been "disabled", it has been supressed and thus can be bypassed).

Which just proves my point, which is that other classes are only able to find and deal with traps rarely and in specific circumstances. A dwarf is going to have a tough time finding a trap unless...

1: It's set in stone, which will not always be the case.
2: They have levels in a class with search as a class skill (and are actually investing in it)
3: [Edit] furthermore, what is this dwarf, assuming they do not have the ability to disable traps, actually going to do about any traps they do manage to find?

Of the core 11, only the ranger and rogue have search as a class skill. In other words that dwarf is not finding a trap unless they're a ranger, they've invested in search, and the trap is in a specific material.

As for the wizard (or any class capable of dispel magic), this offers several problems. Sure you can use dispel magic to temporarily suppress a trap but think of what this means

1: At low levels (say, 5-10) the caster will be using up some prime slots to do something that could easily be done by someone who's invested in the right skill.
2: The level check on dispel magic is capped at +10. A tenth level rogue can easily have a bonus to disable device in the +15 or higher range. Sure at later levels you can use greater dispel magic but this leads to the situation described above where you're using up some of the prime spell slots to do something that someone with the appropriate class feature can do more easily.
3: Temporarily dispelling every magical trap is a very resource intensive strategy. Sure you can rest to gain spells back but this leads to a situation where you're progressing fifteen feet every day.
4: This is, of course, only for magical traps. The mundane ones will still prove a problem.

There are "other" classes that have "trapfinding" too.

Beguiler
Ninja
Scout
Spell Thief


And Prestige Classes:

Chameleon
Nightsong Infiltrator
Temple Raider of Olidammara

I'm sure there are more out there.

Irrelevant. My point is not that the rogue is hogging all the glory. My point is that the party will have a trapfinder and that said trapfinder will be dealing with traps all by their lonesome. If the group has a beguiler as their trapfinder, the beguiler will be working on those traps alone. Same for a scout, ninja, etc. In some rare situations you may have more than one trapfdiner but the best that person can offer is a +2 bonus from aid another.

 

[Jack Simth]

As for the wizard (or any class capable of dispel magic), this offers several problems. Sure you can use dispel magic to temporarily suppress a trap but think of what this means

1: At low levels (say, 5-10) the caster will be using up some prime slots to do something that could easily be done by someone who's invested in the right skill.
2: The level check on dispel magic is capped at +10. A tenth level rogue can easily have a bonus to disable device in the +15 or higher range. Sure at later levels you can use greater dispel magic but this leads to the situation described above where you're using up some of the prime spell slots to do something that someone with the appropriate class feature can do more easily.
3: Temporarily dispelling every magical trap is a very resource intensive strategy. Sure you can rest to gain spells back but this leads to a situation where you're progressing fifteen feet every day.
4: This is, of course, only for magical traps. The mundane ones will still prove a problem.

In most cases, there's no particular need to Dispel a magic trap. You simply go around (sometimes this means having the fighter deal 2,700 damage or more split up among three different five-foot sections of wall, but he doesn't run out of sword swings, so it doesn't much matter - and it doesn't actually take too long, either; that 10th level two-handed fighter, Power Attacking for all his BAB with a two-handed weapon, full attacking, is usually going to hit that AC 5 wall 95% of the time on his first swing, and at least 80% of the time on his second. Even with the hardness-8 of stone, he's going to be dealing in excess of 20 damage per hit - at 35 damage per round (95% of 20 plus 80% of 20), a five-foot cube of solid stone goes away in a little over 25 rounds; Fighters dig fairly quickly).

Yeah, sometimes you will need to actually suppress it to get by - but then, that's what the Wizard's Scribe Scroll class ability (or a bonus feat spent on Craft Wand) is for. Yes, it costs extra when you're not using the class designed for trapfinding (the Rogue, and other classes that get the ability) but that's to be expected.

A lot of traps are not self-resetting; for these, a wand of Summon Monster I will do the job of disarming. For that matter, an Unseen Servant, and a 100 pound bag of rocks (with a rat or snail in a cage, and one arrow each of each alignment you have in the party; you'll need a supply of rats for when you find a trap, possibly more arrows and bags - but rocks should be easy to come by if the Fighter is handy and you're in a stone dungeon) will catch most traps. Unseen Servant drags bag (with arrows and trapped rat). Weight of the bag triggers most floor traps based on weight; rat triggers anything based on life; arrows trigger anything based on alignment (that would also bother your party) or magic. Unseen Servant triggers anything triggered by magic or invisible things. You'll find almost all traps this way. Give the Wizard a wand of Detect Magic (or, later on, Permanencied Detect Magic or Arcane Sight instead) and you'll get very nearly everything that isn't specifically geared against one of the tactics involved, no roll required. Can be done with nothing but 1st and 0th level spells, plus some fairly cheap items. Higher level spells improve it, but aren't required.

 

[awayfarer]

-snip, lots of stuff.-

You can do all that. A PC with the trapfinding ability can do this without spending money or XP on magic items, with one check.

A PC with the trapfinding ability can spend 30 GP on thieves tools and disable traps indefinitely. Using a wand of summon monster I is 7 GP a pop. In 4 uses you've roughly equaled the cost of ordinary thieves tools. Not to mention the fact that the tactics above will not disable the trap in every case.

Everything posted above is comparatively expensive, complicated and time-consuming when weighed against a character with trapfinding.

 

[akbearfoot]

I don't exactly see the problem with rogues being a designated trap finder? Unless they spend lots of skill points, a decent amount of cash, and all the time involved in searching, then they are going to have a chance to miss finding them, and even if they do find them, they still have to be able to disable them, which also takes time.


If there is no rogue in the party, then the party gets nailed by traps(usually). If there is a rogue in the party, then the party is essentially 'more balanced' overall, and thus can survive longer and explore furthur into dungeons before needing to rest. Isn't that sort of the whole point of class balancing?


If there are no meat shields, then anytime a big stompy type monster comes along, the rogues and monks get squished....No healer, then the party rests OFTEN, or spends tons of money on wands....No tracker, then the party potentially misses out on 'lair' treasures, and has a harder time chasing bad guys that escape. No Mage, the party pays full price for all their magic items, and is at a severe disadvantage against larger numbers of enemies, and especially other spellcasters.

Traps have a low CR for their potential damage.

 

[Jack Simth]

You can do all that. A PC with the trapfinding ability can do this without spending money or XP on magic items, with one check.

A PC with the trapfinding ability can spend 30 GP on thieves tools and disable traps indefinitely. Using a wand of summon monster I is 7 GP a pop. In 4 uses you've roughly equaled the cost of ordinary thieves tools. Not to mention the fact that the tactics above will not disable the trap in every case.

Everything posted above is comparatively expensive, complicated and time-consuming when weighed against a character with trapfinding.

Why yes; a proper trapfinder does consume less resources - why, I even mentioned this in the post you're responding to: "Yes, it costs extra when you're not using the class designed for trapfinding (the Rogue, and other classes that get the ability) but that's to be expected." I mean, if I hadn't specifically mentioned that, you'd have me dead to rights here.

And no, it doesn't disable the trap in every case - but in most cases, you don't need to disable the trap; avoiding it is good enough. Once you know where it is, you can simply go around. I even gave an example of having the meatshield in the party MAKE a way around when one isn't immediately available.

It will occasionally miss a trap - but then, so will the rogue. The Wizard who's doing this will miss traps that are geared for the Wizard doing that; the Rogue will either miss traps randomly due to the skill check, or if the Rogue skips the random factor by way of taking 10 or 20, then the Rogue misses the ones where the DM says the Rogue misses due to a high DC (the ones where the DM simply decides that the Rogue misses them, essentially). It amounts to the same thing.

And they'll actually both go at about the same speed (save for when a trap is actually encountered, or when the Rogue is taking 20, rather than taking 10) - you can only search one square per round; being exhaustive, your party's effective move when the Rogue is finding traps is five feet. The unseen servant will move at basically that same pace due to the load it is dragging.

Don't get me wrong - an actual Rogue with max ranks in Search and Disable Device will do it better and at a lower cost - but the prepared Wizard can do without, after about level 3.