[XPH] Psionics Is Different

[Piratecat]

So, here's the problem. Without transparency, many psionic powers have no effective cure/countermeasure, since there are relatively few powerful psions to help you out. That makes these powers remarkably more powerful. I'd consider adding psionic guilds into towns, like the local clerical temple, to help with that sort of thing.

 

[Nifft]

Maybe I'm mis-understanding the whole "non-transparency" issue. I see non-transparency as saying that you must distinguish between the effec and the underlying source of the effect.

The way I see it, Detect Scrying would detect anything with the (Scrying) descriptor -- including Remote View. Likewise for other magic that targets or modifies the results of Scrying -- again, since Remote View has the (Scrying) descriptor. Of course, vise-versa for psionic powers that modify remote view, since Scrying has the (Scrying) descriptor.

Similarly, Knock would defeat Psionic Lock -- but Dispel Magic would not. (And conversely, Psionic Knock would defeat Arcane Lock, but Dispel Psionics would not.)

Magic Circle against Evil prevents mental control -- not specifically magical mental control -- so it would prevent Psionic Dominate from functioning just as it would prevent Dominate Person.

Powers that cause energy damage can be countered just as easily as spells -- they can't be counterspelled, but the energy damage itself can certainly be resisted.

I'm just not seeing the problem -- I skipped 2e, though, so I'm not familiar with that whole debate. Please, if someone could list some example problems from the XPH, I'd really appreciate it.

-- N

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Maybe I'm mis-understanding the whole "non-transparency" issue. I see non-transparency as saying that you must distinguish between the effec and the underlying source of the effect.

The way I see it, Detect Scrying would detect anything with the (Scrying) descriptor -- including Remote View. Likewise for other magic that targets or modifies the results of Scrying -- again, since Remote View has the (Scrying) descriptor. Of course, vise-versa for psionic powers that modify remote view, since Scrying has the (Scrying) descriptor.

Similarly, Knock would defeat Psionic Lock -- but Dispel Magic would not. (And conversely, Psionic Knock would defeat Arcane Lock, but Dispel Psionics would not.)

Magic Circle against Evil prevents mental control -- not specifically magical mental control -- so it would prevent Psionic Dominate from functioning just as it would prevent Dominate Person.

Powers that cause energy damage can be countered just as easily as spells -- they can't be counterspelled, but the energy damage itself can certainly be resisted.

I'm just not seeing the problem -- I skipped 2e, though, so I'm not familiar with that whole debate. Please, if someone could list some example problems from the XPH, I'd really appreciate it.

-- N

I like psionics is different, and I think the distinctions you are making would work. Stacking bonuses shouldn't get out of control if you make sure that bonuses have more generic names (natural armor bonus, rather than psionic vs magical bonus to natural armor). The concern about breaching the difference being a matter of more points for one side vs a feat for the other is a valid one, imho - you might want to consider a feat for both that gives other magic/psionic advantages. Call it cosmopolitan or something similar and make both spellcraft and psicraft class skills plus the ability to overcome the dfference with a level/pp adjustment. (or the caster/manifester level adjustments Dream Chaser mentioned could be fun.)

I'm gonna have to find or homebrew my own "psi is completely different" system before I introduce it into my games. The entire powers mechanic is too much like magic for me, and too diffent from the feel of ANY psionic using fiction I've been exposed to. :\

Kahuna Burger

 

[Nifft]

Stacking bonuses shouldn't get out of control if you make sure that bonuses have more generic names (natural armor bonus, rather than psionic vs magical bonus to natural armor). The concern about breaching the difference being a matter of more points for one side vs a feat for the other is a valid one, imho - you might want to consider a feat for both that gives other magic/psionic advantages.

Yeah, no worries on that first point -- an Enhancement bonus is an Enhancement bonus, no matter what the source. (Side note: IMC I allow 3 types of Natural Armor bonus to stack: Racial, Inherent (from Wish), and Enhancement. Polymorph & Alter Self grant Racial, Barkskin grants Enhancement. This is good for Druids who want to cast that spell and then Wild Shape.)

What I'm considering is playing to the strengths of each caster type -- Clerics would have to expend Turn Undead attempts to dispel psionic effects, Sorcerers would have to take a full-round action and use a higher spell slot, Wizards would have to use an expensive "power component", Druids would each just turn into a bear and bite it, etc. Psions are easy, since the introduction of Augmentations allows a lot of flexibility that isn't present in other caster types -- flexibility over each specific Power.

(E.g.: Wizards might get a special crystal power component worth, say, 200 gp, which would allow a Dispel Magic to target Psionic effects.)

Again, though, I just can't see what -- besides dispelling buffs -- the big balance issue would be.

Thanks, -- Nifft

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Again, though, I just can't see what -- besides dispelling buffs -- the big balance issue would be.

I was discussing this with the hubby and he mentioned counterspelling as an issue. He played a high powered wizard agaisnt a 'beat the players' DM for quite a while, so I'll take his word for it that this is an issue (I've never played a wizard). Same issue as dispelling in some ways, but you only get one chance... *shrug* That and magical tems which gaurd against magic but not so many anti psionic items. But I still think the best solution is to buff your saves through whatever means possible.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Piratecat]

Again, though, I just can't see what -- besides dispelling buffs -- the big balance issue would be.

Dispelling buffs is a huge issue, of course. But consider this:

A telepath mind switches into your body. Normally, an arcane or divine dispel magic drives him out. Without transparency, you need a dispel psionics.

Alternatively, you're a high lvl PC and an enemy psion manifests microcosm on you. Normally a wish or miracle ( a spell any high lvl cleric companion will have) fixes the problem. Now, however, you have to find a high lvl psion who happens to have microcosm, psychic chirurgy or reality revision. If psions are few and far between, as happens in many worlds without transparency, that character is pretty much out of luck.

If you recognize this and plan for it you're probably fine, but no transparency defnitely shifts the balance of power towards the psionic classes. That in turn starts a cascade of societal changes and effects.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Dispelling buffs is a huge issue, of course. But consider this:

A telepath mind switches into your body. Normally, an arcane or divine dispel magic drives him out. Without transparency, you need a dispel psionics.

Alternatively, you're a high lvl PC and an enemy psion manifests microcosm on you. Normally a wish or miracle ( a spell any high lvl cleric companion will have) fixes the problem. Now, however, you have to find a high lvl psion who happens to have microcosm, psychic chirurgy or reality revision. If psions are few and far between, as happens in many worlds without transparency, that character is pretty much out of luck.

If you recognize this and plan for it you're probably fine, but no transparency defnitely shifts the balance of power towards the psionic classes. That in turn starts a cascade of societal changes and effects.

So the main problem seems to be the assumption that psionics will be less common in the party and in the game world than magic. Otherwise it would be equlally true that if you are a psionicist and someone casts curse or baleful polymorph or dominate on your buddy you are the one out of luck... (personaly, I'd think miracle and wish would still have a good chance at reversing a psionicly wrought change even in a 'different' world, but thats another subject.)

I disagree that if you plan for a world with magic and psionics as equally inherent to the campaign that a lack of transparency shifts the balance. If you say "tommorrow I'm introducing a cadre of psionic npc's you never knew existed and psionics are 'different' " thats another story, but thats bad DMing to me, not any issue of transparency as a mechanical issue. If thats the sort of thing people are imagining/remembering when they respond, I think they should look more at what nifft is planning and less at the worst case scenerio.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Piratecat]

Bingo. For instance, in Dark Sun transparency is no big deal because psionics is so prevalent. The problem really comes when people want to make psionics "unique and mysterious", so they both make psonics relatively rare AND not transparent. That sets up some ugly power imbalances, at least in my experience.

 

[Nifft]

A telepath mind switches into your body. Normally, an arcane or divine dispel magic drives him out. Without transparency, you need a dispel psionics.

... or any other effect that prevents posession, like Protection from Evil. The way I see it, there's the basic building block, the delivery platform, and the effect mechanism.

BBB = Arcane, Divine, or Psionic
Delivery Platform = Ray, Burst, Touch, Gaze
Effect = Invisibility, Charm, Posession, Elemental Damage, etc.

Alternatively, you're a high lvl PC and an enemy psion manifests microcosm on you.

Microcosm specifically lists wish and miracle as effective counters, so I don't know where you get this.

I think the major difference that I'm going for is that Dispel Magic ceases to be a universal answer to every problem.

-- N

 

[Staffan]

If I were using "different psionics", I'd have some things that targeted the underlying power type (e.g. spell resistance not helping against psionics, and power resistance not helping against magic), and some things that target the effect itself (e.g. fire resistance working equally well regardless of whether you're hit with a fireball or a whitefire). AFAIK, that was the way it was supposed to work in 2e too - I think they used detect invisibility as one example, and knock vs. a telekinetically held door as another.