[XPH]: Your take on Energy Missile augmentation

[Scion]

Like I said before, the main problem might actually be that the other casting types of damage dealing just arent versitile enough

Answering that requires a major look at the overall system though.

But, in my experience, direct damage falls out of common use (except vs fodder, and sometimes as supplimental damage) before level 10 even. At some point it is just better to use indirect forms of dealing damage or save or dies.. much more than anything else.

Really though, I would much rather have damage dealing be more viable, because I 'hate' save or dies. Hate, hate, hate hatehatehate.

Even then though, I dont think psionic damage dealing is really all that better than the arcane version. Somewhat more versitile definately, but that is about it.

 

[Thanee]

I read it of course, we just disagree on how things are done, and what the conclusions to be reached are.

I am sure that to each of us it is very clear, but we simply dont see eye to eye.

That's fine, Scion. I just feel you are not addressing the point I am making, trying to explain my viewpoint, since you never seem to answer to these parts (including the question above, which is specifically directed at you).

I'm not simply saying that I see what you are stating to be wrong, just because it doesn't suit me, but because it fails to address that.

I'm speaking, of course, of the PP vs Slots flexibility here.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Sounds like something that is impossible to compare.

Slots are more limited, in that you could drop your pp in a few massive loads, or a ton of smaller ones.

But, overall the slot system will have the advantage of a greater amount of versitility for a lesser cost.

Trying to compare the two is just too much apples and oranges, they are simply too far seperated on almost every degree that a useful comparison would be limited at best. Too many things would have to be assumed or simply ignored to come up with 'any' sort of basis of comparison. It would be much too skewed to be of any real use.

Now, I just said the same thing in several different ways, hopefully one will get across what I mean. I have answered this question before in other ways as well.

Effectively it is like trying to make a human solve a transcendental equation. You can guess, you can make graphs, but in the end humans just arent smart enough to do so in a useful way.

 

[Thanee]

...Psions with their low number of spells known...

You are kidding, right? You must be kidding...

Low number of spells (well, powers) known!?

Every single power is worth as much as 2-20 spells known (20 is an exaggeration, of course, but it's not so much in case of the energy line). A very good example is Astral Construct, which is the same as nine arcane spells basically. They gain pretty much the same number of powers during their advancement as wizards do. Wizards have to spend money to gain more spells (they can do so, yes), but low is not really an attribute I would consider when speaking of Psions and powers known! Wizards can know (and most often will know) more spells, than Psions will know powers, but I don't think, if you consider how many effective spells those powers include, that the numbers are that different. Wizards have a much broader base to pick from, however.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Even 2 is an exageration, some psionic powers are worth 1/3 or less of a single spell.

20 is a massive overstatement. The energy powers still are just one spell effectively though, not even up to the standard of 2 really.

Astral construct is a nice example in a way, but it isnt worth anywhere near 9 spells.

Each individual one is always less than the best choice for the task of the summoning, along with the summoning haveing such a large number of extra options.

But, summonings also can summon multiple lower ones. So, each one tends to be much more powerful individually, many more options, and can summon multiples.

Going by that Astral construct is more like 3 spells total 'at best'. At that point though, some people say the summonings are weak for spells even.

So, even though they are very difficult to compare, it certainly doesnt seem like an overpowered way to go.

One way of comparing makes it sound horribly overpowered, another makes it sound horribly underpowered.

Just about like all of these things really.. interesting..

 

[Thanee]

Sounds like something that is impossible to compare.

Erm, Impossible?

1 PP ~ 1st level slot
3 PP ~ 2nd level slot
...
17 PP ~ 9th level slot

It's fairly easy to seperate the Psion's PP pool into smaller bits, something resembling slots.

Now you can take a couple of the lower "slots" and merge them together to a higher "slot" or the other way around, which is what the Psion can do with the PP pool, since it isn't really seperated into slots.

This is flexibility.

It results in Psions being able to manifest A LOT of high level powers per day, something the slot system does put severe limits on.

The other way is not very useful however, while Psions can "split up" higher level "slots" to manifest lots and lots and lots of lower level powers (unaugmented or just very few augmentation), those powers are usually not very powerful.

This flexibility is exactly the reason, why augmentation costs PP and why psionics do not scale! If they would scale, this "splitting" of higher level "slots" would be ridiculously powerful!

It's not just flavor, it's a balance reason (been so since first introducing psionics in 3.0)!

Too many things would have to be assumed or simply ignored to come up with 'any' sort of basis of comparison. It would be much too skewed to be of any real use.

You have to consider this, otherwise a comparison between spells and powers has no meaning, because it doesn't address why augmentation costs PP. Saying this is a disadvantage compared to spells and then saying that you cannot compare the systems on that level (as shown above), just removes the advantage, which is balanced by this disadvantage.

Of course, powers look weaker then. Not hard to see that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

20 is a massive overstatement.

Not massive, but an overstatement, yes. As I said myself.

The energy powers still are just one spell effectively though, not even up to the standard of 2 really.

Energy Ball is a 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level power, which can be used in four different ways (fire, cold, lightning, sonic). That's 24 spells. Of course, this is too much, since it cannot compare to 8th level spells, naturally. But it surely is worth something like 8 spells known, which you would need to produce effects anywhere near what is possible with this power alone.

Astral Construct at first Psion level throgh 20th Psion level is exactly the same as picking the whole Summon Monster range of spells.

Now you might say, which I can agree with, that not every Psion is going to make use of this whole, even if it is there, thus one has to reduce these numbers a bit to accomodate, but even then it turns out to be surely more than a single spell with a lot of the powers (exceptions are there, of course). Quite a few in some cases even.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Erm, Impossible?

1 PP ~ 1st level slot
3 PP ~ 2nd level slot
...
17 PP ~ 9th level slot

It's fairly easy to seperate the Psion's PP pool into smaller bits, something resembling slots.

So what? So, if I have 100 pp are you going to compare it with 100 1st level?33 2nd level? 5 9th level? Some random amounts in between? Anything you stick with will wind up giving you slightly different results. In the end you would have to compare every variation, and then take the average of the results, and then 'still' not having something that was all that useful.

This is flexibility.

Yep, but caster types have a lot of slots, this is also flexibility, just not to the same extent all of the time. Although, sometimes more.

Especially since, if you use a lot of the higher up ones to get the bigger advantages you just cant compete with the sheer number of spells that are being cast. If you use the lower ones then you cant compete with the power output. Effectively you have to choose which part of the road to be in.

You can burn out quickly and be, maybe, slightly better than the arcane types. You can last much, much longer but be no where near as powerful for any particular part.

The option is great, and it makes up for the fact that generally the overall effect will be slightly behind the other caster.

Sounds like balance.

Psions have augmentation and greater versitility, arcane tend to have many more total 'effective' pp and they get free scaling.

Both have their own strengths and weaknesses. Saying one is unilaterly better without taking into account 'everything' just cant be done usefully. Taking in 'everything' is a bit beyond what we have done here. Well beyond in fact.

Plus, even then, you have to then say that even if they are unilaterly better overall, is that a bad thing? or is it something that should be changed in other casters to make them better in order to make the whole system more balanced overall. (which is not my saying that either one is so horribly overpowered compared to the other that this is the case, merely that it is the next logical step if the orignial premise of that arguement is shown)

 

[Scion]

Not massive, but an overstatement, yes. As I said myself.

20 isnt 'massive'? I would have to say that an order of magnitude is indeed massive

Energy Ball is a 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level power, which can be used in four different ways (fire, cold, lightning, sonic). That's 24 spells.

::sighs:: This is very misleading thanee. It isnt useful in the way you say, especially with the way other parts of the game work.

Sure, it could be the way you say, or it could be simply that it is simply comparing it to one and the rest of the comparison is useless.

If you would like to do it this way then shadowevocation is an unbounded number of spells. Now, when comparing some number to infinity I know which one 'wins'.

The augmentation is gained because of lack of scaling. So, if you want to say that energy ball is 24 spells then I will say that fireball itself (which scales from 5d6 to 10d6) is as many spells and more. As I can use it in a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level slot and I can choose to have it be at 5d6, 6d6, 7d6, 8d6, 9d6 and 10d6. Now I have 42 different spells!

You will probably say this comparison isnt very valid, that is fine. It is just as valid as yours though.

Astral Construct at first Psion level throgh 20th Psion level is exactly the same as picking the whole Summon Monster range of spells.

No, not exactly, each part is much weaker in power, breadth, and options.

Since each part is much more versitile, and has many more abilities, having the whole thing rolled into one doesnt seem overpowered at all.

The single astral construct power is much more versitile in that it can be augmented, any given summon monster of the same level it is cast at is just much more potent in uses.

Interesting how there are tradeoffs all over yes?

 

[Thanee]

So what? So, if I have 100 pp are you going to compare it with 100 1st level?33 2nd level? 5 9th level? Some random amounts in between? Anything you stick with will wind up giving you slightly different results. In the end you would have to compare every variation, and then take the average of the results, and then 'still' not having something that was all that useful.

If you add them up in a similar way as spellcasters gain slots, you will get a pretty similar result in the end.

Especially since, if you use a lot of the higher up ones to get the bigger advantages you just cant compete with the sheer number of spells that are being cast.

Correct, this is the cost of the flexibility. Namely the augmentation cost.

If you use the lower ones then you cant compete with the power output.Effectively you have to choose which part of the road to be in.

Correct. Again, this is the cost of the flexibility.

Effectively you have to choose which part of the road to be in.

And again correct. You have to AND YOU CAN choose which part of the road to be in. Every day you can choose it differently!

This is the flexibility Psions have!

Wizards always follow the same route, they always have X slots of Yth level.

You can burn out quickly and be, maybe, slightly better than the arcane types. You can last much, much longer but be no where near as powerful for any particular part. The option is great, and it makes up for the fact that generally the overall effect will be slightly behind the other caster.

That's something I highly doubt, that the overall effect will be behind other casters (with the Psion at least, not so much with the other psionic classes, even the Wilder).

Sounds like balance.

You got it. Balance. Balance between flexibility and the cost involved, which is the cost to pay for augmentation!

Psions have augmentation and greater versitility, arcane tend to have many more total 'effective' pp

Nope, the numbers are fairly similar.

and they get free scaling.

Yeah.

Both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Absolutely.

Saying one is unilaterly better without taking into account 'everything' just cant be done usefully.

What I said early in this thread.

And what I also said is, that you state the cost (augmentation) as a factor, but ignore the part, which this cost buys you (flexibility).

Taking in 'everything' is a bit beyond what we have done here. Well beyond in fact.

Not in my case, at least not when limiting it to comparing Energy Missile to Scorching Ray, which is not a class comparison, obviously.

Energy Missile is a 2nd level power and has to compare with other abilities of that power level (2nd level spells, for example). They woudn't have used the same level system to mark psionic power levels, if it wasn't meant to be compareable in effect.


OFF TOPIC:

Plus, even then, you have to then say that even if they are unilaterly better overall, is that a bad thing?

That's of course a question, which is different to the rest here...

This thread is not about the Psion, but about one specific power only.

or is it something that should be changed in other casters to make them better in order to make the whole system more balanced overall.

That is where I use my playing experience with the core rules. Spellcasters are very, very powerful. I don't think it is a good idea, after 3.5 removed a lot of the broken stuff (altho going a bit far in some areas, like the new Spell Focus, but those are just minor points that don't really change much overall), to go further from there.

Bye
Thanee