[XPH]: Your take on Energy Missile augmentation

[Kyamsil]

I agree in that magic and psionics just can't be compared well. The fact is, a spell automatically scales with caster level, while if you want a power to scale with manifester level you must use augmentation.

That means that some people, like Scion, consider that the extra power points in the manifestation of that power is the same as improving the level of the power by 1 for each 2 points invested, which in some cases (Astral Construct) is a good assumption. But in damage dealing powers, the line is not that clear. If you don't allow powers to be augmented to make use of the extra manifester level you must compare them at the minimum caster level/manifester level. If you allow the spell to be compared at the spell cap caster level and don't allow the power to be augmented, then the power is obviously always worse.

In the other end, if you allow the power to be augmented up to a number of power points equal to the caster level at the spell cap, in most cases powers will have the upper hand.

A way of actually comparing them allowing for augmentation and being fair with both systems is to use the Spell Points variant from Unearthed Arcana. In that alternative system magic works as psionics, spells that deal damage always deal the minimum damage according to minimum caster level for a spell of their level. If you want to do more damage with them you have to invest extra spell points. The cost of spells in this system is like the psionics from 3.0.

We all agree in that the spell that is closer to Energy Missile is Scorching Ray. As Scorching Ray can only deal fire damage, then let's suppose that is the energy selected for Energy Missile.

Then, let's compare them at the minimum caster level (3) and then again at the maximum caster level (11).

Scorching Ray at 3rd level: Range 30', one ray inflicts 4d6(fire), ranged touch to hit, no save.
Energy Missile(fire) at 3rd level: Range 130', up to 5 targets within 15' of each other suffer 3d6+3(fire), no ranged touch to hit, Reflex save at 12+Int modifier for half damage.

We can see that, Scorching Ray has a miss-chance because of the ranged touch requirement (that is effectively like a save "negates"). Has 100' less range, can deal more maximum damage (24 vs. 21) but has less minimum damage (4 vs. 6). Energy Missile has the advantage of being able to deal its damage to up to 5 targets, but is subject to Evasion.

All that means that Energy Missile seems better by far at 3rd level. Now, let's boost both to have 11 power points/11 spell points for a caster/manifester level of 11.

Scorching Ray at 11th level: Range 50', 3 rays deal 4d6(fire) each at separate targets or the same target, ranged touch to hit, no save.

Energy Missile(fire) at 11th level: Range 210', up to 5 targets within 15' of each other suffer 11d6+11(fire), no ranged touch to hit, Reflex save at 20+Int modifier for half damage.

So, using the same amount of power/spell points, Scorching Ray has 160' less range, can deal 4d6(fire) to 3 separate targets (with miss chances because of ranged touch) or up to 12d6(fire) to only one target. Meanwhile, Energy Missile(fire) deals 11d6+11 to up to 5 targets, forcing a save DC that is higher than average by far. Uhm... I think we have a winner.

Now, the power and spell have been judged using the same mechanic thanks to UA Spell Point system to avoid any further discussion on the difficulty of comparing spells to powers.

Energy Missile has been proved to be better, by far to a similar spell of the same level, both at the minimum and at the maximum for the spell. And that is without taking into account that you are not limited to use fire but have 3 other energy types to select "on the fly" without having archmage Mastery of Elements or Energy Substitution feats and so on.

Scion, if you continue saying that this power is not too powerful for its level after this you must be blind Also, you are "house ruling" the power since the beginning, because it was intended that it could target items, so having 5 targets is really easy, but only useful with sonic energy.

 

[Khristos]

One way you could make the comparison would be to comapre UA sp to XPH pp then Thanee has a point as Psions actually have more power to produce the effect. Personally I think it is overpowered but that is par for the course for some spells/ powers in the game. Magic missile powerful? 5d4+ 5 to one target or any combination equalling that amount within 30 ft. At 10th level against a "real" group of opponents you think 4-10 points and 6-15 pts is comparable to 10d6 to each? Scale the PP system back down to where the wizard SP points are and you have an argument. Try using a ray when a person is in melee when you are comparing scorching ray and energy missile. Did the wizzie take precise shot? BTW magic missile would be on an Evokers specialist list so maybe it should get more of a bump when used by an evoker

 

[Thanee]

In the other end, if you allow the power to be augmented up to a number of power points equal to the caster level at the spell cap, in most cases powers will have the upper hand.

Erm, Scion is saying, that in that case the power is worse, since it has a much higher cost, but roughly the same effect.

Scion is also saying, that with 11 PP you have to compare a 2nd level power to a 6th level spell, since 11 PP equals a 6th level slot. Of course a 2nd level power at 11th level loses to a 6th level power at 11th level. His nice X+Y example easily shows this (11+2 < 11+6).

I'm saying, that at this point, the effect should be essentially about equal (a slight advantage for the power is acceptable, but not the huge advantage Energy Missile has in this case), and that the augmentation cost involved is not a factor in this comparison, as it is balanced against something else (the flexibility).

I'm also saying, that a 2nd level power is still essentially a 2nd level power, even if augmented into the sky.

An augmented power equals a scaled spell.
These are the equivalent concepts in the quite different systems.

Powers actually do have a slight advantage, that's right (higher save DC, some added flexibility, since they essentially include higher level versions of the same and can be "scaled" up and down according to the situation), but they also have a huge cost in terms of PP, which is the balancing factor of the enormous flexibility in applying those over the day.

In your comparison, the 11th level Scorching Ray is basically the same as the scaled up Scorching Ray in my example, so obviously they can compare quite well (unlike you say in the quote above). The UA spell point system uses the same method for balancing the added flexibility by applying a cost to scaling and not giving it for free. The same I am saying about how the psionics system is working.

Note, that I am not disagreeing with you, just underlining, that our examples are basically the same.

* * *​

The energy line of powers is a bit much in terms of flexibility when comparing with similar spells (altho the introduction of the differences in the energy being used is pretty cool, they should have done more of that in general, giving some advantages and disadvantages to the elements beyond clipping another tag behind the spell/power name). With the unlimited augmentation they already are worth as much as multiple similar spells of different levels, but with the energy types they multiply this number by four!

Because of these powers, psionics are the best magic type to deal energy damage, which is a place that should be reserved for arcane magic, making these spells highly unflavourful in my eyes.

Anyways, the multiple targets and high range make Energy Missile stand out too far as a 2nd level power (not speaking of the DC scaling "error").

Bye
Thanee

 

[Stalker0]

I'm seeing a lot of assumptions thrown around:

One is that the whole scaling vs augmentation equivalency argument.

I agree that for the most part psionic powers are balanced by their cost because of their flexibility. But that is not the case with damage dealing spells.

What flexibility is gained by damage augmentation? How often do 10th level wizards decide to cast their fireballs at only 5th level? Most of the time you go for the gusto, because heck its a 3rd level slot anyway you slice it.

With energy missile I'm always a least spending 3 pp. But to keep up with scorching ray I have to spend a lot more. There is no benefit to energy missile here.


2nd, I think people are seriously underestimating the power of range touch attack spells. While yes there is a miss chance, in general I see saves scaling much faster than touch ACs. A high level fighter can get cloakes of protection, bonuses to wis, and other misc bonuses to boost his will save, but when he's main ac comes from shield and armor, his touch ac usually suffers.

3rd, people need to remember the context of the game when they are talking augmentation.

When you scale energy missile to 15th caster level equivalent, you have to remember wizards have long left their 2nd level spells. Psions with their low number of spells known still rely on them. At that levels, energy resistances, globes of invulnerability, etc become more commonplace, especially in a world where psionics are used and such low level spells are frequently encountered.


So in my mind, the only real benefit I get from the augmentation of energy missile is to raise the dc just so I can deal damage as often as I can with scorching ray, and as a side benefit I can actually keep up in damage!! The cost is the increase in pp.

 

[Scion]

All that means that Energy Missile seems better by far at 3rd level. Now, let's boost both to have 11 power points/11 spell points for a caster/manifester level of 11.

Scorching Ray at 11th level: Range 50', 3 rays deal 4d6(fire) each at separate targets or the same target, ranged touch to hit, no save.

Energy Missile(fire) at 11th level: Range 210', up to 5 targets within 15' of each other suffer 11d6+11(fire), no ranged touch to hit, Reflex save at 20+Int modifier for half damage.

While I have no idea what the ua point system is, I would have to say that since with this comparison you are comparing a single 2nd level spell to a highly augmented psionic power (that costs way more than your spell) that the comparison has just failed.

For being at 11th level you have given the scorching ray 'nothing' and are comparing it against something you have given an incredible boost in pp.

What boost does scorching ray get in the ua system? So far it looks like none.
In the system you are useing the spells lose their autoscaling and you have to pay for it. I am not interested in comparing such a system, as I would have to know all of the factors to see what the other balancing factors are.

At this point it looks like the ua system is horribly weak. So comparing something that is needing of comparison to something that is horribly weak just isnt useful.

Also, in your first comparison you failed to take into account that the rays can crit. but that isnt a huge deal really.

All of this is also assuming something very fundamental: That arcane damage dealing, as is in the core, is strong enough. My experience shows exactly the opposite. So, when my comparisons show that the arcane matches up very nicely, with the psionic type pulling ahead here and there, then it is perfectly fine.

This means, of course, that I am willing to see the psionic type come out slightly ahead and not be worried. The fact that sometimes the arcane version is still ahead should simply prove the point that it is fine.

Again though, comparing Spell level X to power level Y just isnt useful.

I know you are trying to prove something here, but I dont think you have succeeded. Some alternate magic from a noncore book seems to have a point system that is not very good (of course, I know nothing about it beyond what you have said here).

Even doing the metamagic comparison, which also proves nothing useful, goes something like this:

Scorching Ray, empowered: (4d6*1.5) for up to three rays.
Energy missile, augmented: 7d6+mod for up to 5 targets, save dc 16+mod

For a single target? Scorching ray is much better. Dealing somewhere around 42 for 2 rays and 63 for 3 rays. (some might miss, some might crit)

Energy missile does an average of 24.5+mod to each target, but can be saved against to cut that in half.

So, for some situations (the ones that it really matters) scorching ray is better. Against single bbeg it is a powerhouse of damage. Against many smaller targets it is better.

Of course then there is fireball. (between 5d6 and 10d6 damage, dc 13+mod).
For one level less it does between 17.5 and 35 points of damage to, potentially, many more targets. Even ones you didnt even know where there.

But then, again, even with these comparisons the psionic comes out ahead sometimes, and other times the arcane comes out ahead. Each is good in its own situation. Since this is the case, obviously, then it follows that it is fine as is. Again and again this is true.

Even if you can prove that 100% of the time though the psionic version is better you would still have to prove that this is a bad thing. You will have to prove that the amount of damage it deals is overpowered for the game as a whole.

It could very well be that arcane damage dealing capability simply isnt good enough for 3rd edition. Or, it could be that the specialist kineticist should be better at dealing damage.

If you can prove all of that then be my guest, but so far all that has been shown is that sometimes psionic is better, and sometimes arcane is better. That is hardly damning evidence.

Scion, if you continue saying that this power is not too powerful for its level after this you must be blind Also, you are "house ruling" the power since the beginning, because it was intended that it could target items, so having 5 targets is really easy, but only useful with sonic energy.

Your comparison is useing some system that is apparently somewhat flawed. It appears to be 'weaker' than the normal magic system. Of course I only know what you have posted here about it, but comparing psionics to an obviously weaker system of magic, and then saying, 'see! it is too powerful!' just isnt helpful to core d&d. Maybe it would matter for the ua system, or maybe the makers of it would toss it out in favor of useing psionics instead.

The house rule though is necissary. Objects are generally immune to being effected, although even scorching ray can be used to fry just about any item you want. It is simply too easy with energy missile as written. With the houserule I used this power has no problems at all.

Just about perfect in fact

 

[Scion]

Because of these powers, psionics are the best magic type to deal energy damage, which is a place that should be reserved for arcane magic, making these spells highly unflavourful in my eyes.

Since this isnt even true all of the time in the core, I would have to say that this is another point we are fundamentally opposed at.

Psionics are now the best at damage dealing, good enough then, the arcane type of damage dealing just werent very useful after level 10 or so anyway.

So, breaking an archtype that doesnt exist isnt such a bad thing

 

[Scion]

With energy missile I'm always a least spending 3 pp. But to keep up with scorching ray I have to spend a lot more. There is no benefit to energy missile here.

Very true, thanee and the others seem to be overlooking this.

2nd, I think people are seriously underestimating the power of range touch attack spells. While yes there is a miss chance, in general I see saves scaling much faster than touch ACs. A high level fighter can get cloakes of protection, bonuses to wis, and other misc bonuses to boost his will save, but when he's main ac comes from shield and armor, his touch ac usually suffers.

Also very true, touch attacks are incredibly powerful. Not only do touch ac's generally remain fairly low, but they can also crit

Touch attacks such as this have no save. No save means effectively an infinite dc, no amount of pumping pp into energy missile will get it that high

So in my mind, the only real benefit I get from the augmentation of energy missile is to raise the dc just so I can deal damage as often as I can with scorching ray, and as a side benefit I can actually keep up in damage!! The cost is the increase in pp.

Well said

 

[Thanee]

Do you guys actually read what I am writing?

I know very well (and I think I stated it quite a few times), that there is a huge cost involved in augmentation. You just always ignore the rest there somehow and just look at this cost seperated from the whole.

And Stalker0, one hint, the flexibility you meant is not what I am talking about.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Do you guys actually read what I am writing?

I read it of course, we just disagree on how things are done, and what the conclusions to be reached are.

I am sure that to each of us it is very clear, but we simply dont see eye to eye.

 

[Thanee]

Since this isnt even true all of the time in the core, I would have to say that this is another point we are fundamentally opposed at.

Psionics are now the best at damage dealing, good enough then, the arcane type of damage dealing just werent very useful after level 10 or so anyway.

So, breaking an archtype that doesnt exist isnt such a bad thing

Just for the record, that's absolutely fine, it's just an opposed opinion about the flavor. Nothing to argue there.

I just don't see how psionics should be the mastery of elements, which it certainly is with these powers, but that's just personal preferance.

Bye
Thanee