[XPH]: Your take on Energy Missile augmentation

[Particle_Man]

Level 2 power versus level 2 spell and augmentation used to full effect, scaling used to full effect. Not level 2 power versus level 6 spell or augmentation used to no effect, but scaling used to full effect.

That doesn't work, Thanee. Take an augmented level 1 power, Astral Construct, vs. a level 1 spell, Summon Monster I. The higher the level of the character, the greater the duration of the power and spell in both cases, but an 17th level wizard casting the latter will get a very minor creature compared to a 17th level psion putting 17pp into the former. For the comparison to be close to fair, you have to compare the (augmented to 17pp version) Astral Construct to Summon Monster IX. And this makes sense, since in 3.0 PsiHB, there really was a Create Astral Construct IX (a 9th level power) that did exactly what Astral Construct (a first level power) augmented to 17 pp does in 3.5.

And it would be the same with all other augmentable powers and spells.

 

[Thanee]

Particle_Man: Yes, that's right. It doesn't work that easily. Some powers (the Astral Construct is a prime example) change considerably beyond what normal scaling grants, when augmented.

What Scion said, that you cannot compare a 20 PP power to a 2nd level spell is also right, that's out of bounds. Sure that's still a 2nd level power then, but well...

You can only really make decent and meaningful comparisons within certain limits, everything beyond that is pretty worthless.

However, you also cannot compare metamagic with augmentation, as it is taking spells one step further. And the cost of a higher level slot is several times higher than the cost of a full augmentation! 3 PP does not equal a 2nd level spell slot! If you just ignore the flexibility of the PP system, because only then it would be true to a degree, then any comparison becomes worthless.

Even though, the metamagicked Scorching Ray will certainly lose out against the augmented Energy Missile, which is just another hint, that the power is just not balanced.

Anyways, all I'm saying is, that you need to compare the systems as a whole, and in that comparison you need to pitch augmentation against scaling, as that is the psionic method of "scaling".

If you don't compare with all factors applied you are comparing two completely different things.

In other threads I have said the same thing, it is like comparing a regular magic missile to a maximised, empowered magic missile. Oh no! Magic missile does way more damage than magic missilie! Magic missile is broken!

BTW, repeating this doesn't make it any less silly.

It is in no way related to the topic, as it compares two spells, one metamagicked and thus obviously better; when comparing spells and powers, things aren't that easy.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

BTW, repeating this doesn't make it any less silly.

It is in no way related to the topic, as it compares two spells, one metamagicked and thus obviously better; when comparing spells and powers, things aren't that easy.

Of course it is silly, that is the point. It is 'just' as silly as comparing an augmeneted power to +X levels vs some other spell of the same level they are when they start. You just cant do it and hope to have a useful comparison.

Hence the example with magic missile, it is incredibly silly!! Same as comparing Power level X with Y extra pp dumped into it vs spell level X.

I said it just then in two seperate ways, hopefully one of them makes the proper connections

It is 'very' difficult to compare across the arcane/psionic gap, but some broad comparisons can be made, when done properly. We, apparently, just dont agree on what is proper. That is fine I guess

However, with the comparison of energy missile vs cone it comes out just fine, each is good in certain situations. As such, it seems balanced.

 

[Thanee]

Well, if you do not see the fault in your logic, altho I have pointed it out multiple times by now, then I can't help you, I guess.

Same as comparing Power level X with Y extra pp dumped into it vs spell level X.

There is a cost involved in casting the spell which compares to Y, you just ignore that cost in your comparison. See above to find out more about that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

No, I see the massive fault in your logical premise. That is the problem. The way I am doing it is much better, and much cleaner.

But I have already said the same, multiple times. Hence why I keep mentioning the comparison useing only psionic powers. Going just by psionics it is fine as is.

Edit: 'massive' is a bit harsh, but I think we are both tired of repeating ourselves at this point

 

[Thanee]

Going by psionics only is certainly much easier, as it does not involve stuff, which is to be compared to things that are not immediately affecting the powers/spells at hand (like the aforementioned flexibility or spell caps).

But even with only the energy line, I think Energy Missile clearly stands out.
It's in many occasions better than some higher level energy powers.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

And worse in many ways.

The very definition of balanced.

 

[Thanee]

Only if comparing at the same level. If you compare lower level to higher level you HAVE to see the lower level come out worse, really, if speaking of balance.

Mind you, it's ok, if a lower level power is better in some very specific situations, but Energy Missile is better than some higher level powers in almost all situations!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Ok, if you compare energy missile (level 2 with no augmentation) to energy cone (level 3 with no augmentation) then yes, it is clear that energy cone is almost always much better.

There are times when energy missile is better, sure, but then this happens all the time for different spells and powers. It is just the way it works.

Is it always better? nope. Unaugmented cone is almost always much better.

As we go up in augmentation this pretty much stays the same.

so, again, no problems

 

[Thanee]

Energy Cone is a good power, yes.

As a 3rd (at least, rather 4th IMHO) level power Energy Missile would be ok, too.
I just think it's too good for a 2nd level power, that it can easily compare with some higher level powers, shows this pretty well.

Anyways, one thing I'm curious about is, what you think is the balancing factor for the added flexibility in the PP system (compared to using slots), Scion?

Bye
Thanee