[XPH]: Your take on Energy Missile augmentation

[Scion]

If you can do 12d6 with Scorching Ray, you can do 11d6+11 to 1-5 targets with Energy Missile at least!

Oh? lets see you. 3 pp sure goes a whole lot farther in your campaign than it does in mine

Where is Scorching Ray doing significantly more damage here!? I see up to 5 times (2-3 times being reasonable) the damage in favor to Energy Missile, actually.

I think you need to reread the part you quoted. Unless I am misinterpreting what you are saying here I believe you have a couple of my words wrong when you read it over

12d6 to one target vs 3d6 to a few. Generally the 12d6 is much, much better. Even if we allow the energy missile to hit 5 targets somehow.

True, it's just a minor point, tho, which is somewhat linked with the overall way psionics work, which is (fortunately) a bit different to magic now.

Minor point? As is the extra distance in most cases, so it is even

 

[Thanee]

Oh? lets see you. 3 pp sure goes a whole lot farther in your campaign than it does in mine

Erm, you are comparing a fully scaled spell (scaling system) with an unaugmented power (augmentation system) and you say they are basically equal then, right?

Thanks for totally proving my point!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

I am comparing a level 2 power to a level 2 spell.

If you wish to put more pp into the power, then compare it with a higher level spell.

You wanted to compare it with scorching ray, that is your own problem ifyou dont like the results

 

[Geoff Watson]

It's only damage.

The really huge save DC is only really important for 'save or lose' spells/powers.

Geoff.

 

[Thanee]

I am comparing a level 2 power to a level 2 spell.

If you wish to put more pp into the power, then compare it with a higher level spell.

No, that doesn't work, Scion.

You cannot pick only a little part of one system and compare it with the whole of another system. That's not giving any useful results.

You have to compare how those powers will be used effectively, and that's - at 11th level - a Scorching Ray scaled to maximum effect versus an Energy Missile augmented to maximum effect.

You could also compare both at minimum levels (i.e. 3rd caster/manifester level), or any level in between, but you always have to compare equal levels.

Level 2 power versus level 2 spell and augmentation used to full effect, scaling used to full effect. Not level 2 power versus level 6 spell or augmentation used to no effect, but scaling used to full effect.

I'm well aware, that the cost of the augmented 2nd level power is the same as for a unaugmented 6th level power, but that is the nature of the psionic augmentation system. You can't simply deny that and compare a 3 PP power with an 11th CL spell, that's like comparing a 3rd level Psion to a 11th level Wizard. Not going to give any useful results.

The psionic augmentation system has its advantages and disadvantages, one of the disadvantages (more like a balancing factor, tho) is the high cost involved with augmentation, but there are plenty advantages (especially the huge flexibility with the PP system, the 11th level Psion is not even tapping his 6th level power PP reserve to manifest a fully augmented 2nd level power, he will still be able to manifest many more of those than the Wizard afterwards - because of that flexibility, psionic powers do not scale, because it would be utterly ridiculous with the amount of highly effective low level powers they could manifest then, thanks to the non-linear advancement of the PP reserve).

If you do not take all of this into account, which I do, your comparison is completely pointless, really.

(...and that's not meant to be snippish, rather objective, even tho it sounds otherwise. )

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

Hah, everyone whines about Stunning Fist being useless and now energy stun is suddenly so effective?

 

[sumi]

Could I point out that a lesser globe of invulnerability at a wonderful 7th level would negate all the augmentation and extra pluses required of a saving throw, as the power is still a spell effect that is 1-3rd level. 20' dia can protect a lot of people. This is the way that my DM is playing it - seems fair. I think some of you should get off your high horses and approach the game in a fun/practical way.

 

[Scion]

No, that doesn't work, Scion.

Actually, it works just fine.You are comparing something costing the equivalent of X pp to something that costs X pp. To do otherwise is to destroy the comparison.

In other threads I have said the same thing, it is like comparing a regular magic missile to a maximised, empowered magic missile. Oh no! Magic missile does way more damage than magic missilie! Magic missile is broken!

If you are putting more points into energy missile, and still comparing it to a second level spell, then your comparison is worthless. It says nothing useful.

You have to compare how those powers will be used effectively, and that's - at 11th level - a Scorching Ray scaled to maximum effect versus an Energy Missile augmented to maximum effect.

Completely false. Doing this makes the comparison worthless. See the above magic missile example.

Augmentation increases the cost, and so effectively the level (notice I did not say 'effective level', different terms).

With what you are saying then I would have to compare the enlarge person spell to a fully augmented enlarge of the psychic warrior. It is nonsense.

Or The dominate spell to a fully augmented dominate power. Again, useless.

I'm well aware, that the cost of the augmented 2nd level power is the same as for a unaugmented 6th level power, but that is the nature of the psionic augmentation system. You can't simply deny that and compare a 3 PP power with an 11th CL spell, that's like comparing a 3rd level Psion to a 11th level Wizard. Not going to give any useful results.

Well, you certainly cant compare an augmented power (costing 20 pp say) to a second level spell. Surely even you must see this. That comparison is just a waste of time.

There was a comparison done earlier of energy missile and energy cone. The comparison came out that you trade in several benefits of energy cone to get the augmented dc. Decent trade, each is good in certain situations.


So, when comparing with spells you dont like the way I do it (which seems only fair to me, considering) and we certainly cant do it the way you want to do it (I gave numerous examples as to why that is). Plus, when compared with another kineticist only power energy missile seems fine.

Comparison? Looks like energy missile is just fine as is! (sans ability to target attended objects of course)

 

[Humanophile]

Two things that cross my mind.

First, I'd like to see how Energy Missle stacks up against, I dunno, a metamagicked Scorching Ray. Empowered and Maximized, both thrown at caster/manifester level 13? Agumentation is, in some senses, free metamagic, so I'd like to see spells vs. power comparison if both are thrown at the "same level".

Second, I wonder how Energy Missle would hold up to Energy Ray if both were no save powers. Would an extra ...target and a half, say, plus extra range and no RTA needed be worth the level and change (of it being a discipline-only power)? I could see the save-less Energy missle being - maybe - a general third-level power, and with a small chance of halving the damage, still hovering around the average general third level area. But I'm not going to lose sleep if it stays selective-second.

Of course, I'm not going to lose sleep if the save gets errataed down, either. With a save for half, it's still firmly a second-level power, even if not as much "second and a half" as it was before.

 

[Scion]

Metamagic is generally pretty weak, that is the main problem with those sorts of comparisons

Such as, empowered fireball vs cone of cold. Now, many feel that cone of cold is already weak for its level, but it is still, generally, much better than the fireball.