(YB-Meta-Rules) Honor Path progressions and powers
- Thread starter Wicht
- Start date
Phoenix8008
First Post
Wicht, I have a question concerning the Dojo Style power. Let me ask it after an example.
Exaple: Fighter becomes a Yellow belt and gains Rat signature style and Dragon Dojo style from his master. When this fighter becomes Green belt, is the Signature style he gains the Dragon style that was his Dojo style during Yellow belt or does he get Dragon in addition to a new Signature style?
If these stack, then by the Perfect Master rank the fighter would have 10 signature styles and all 50 modifiers!? Well, I'm sure you know my thoughts on having so many styles, but if everyone else likes it then that's cool and I'll just avoid the Honor path myself probably. If it was me, I'd give the power you call Perfect Master once at Green belt but let it be used for any style once per fight and limit the total Sig styles to 3-5. You know all this from our past discussions, but which way would others like to see it? Lots of styles or a few styles which can be used more regularly?
Also, you might consider changing either the Perfect Master teir name or the Perfect Master ability name to avoid confusion.
Other than those quibbles, it looks great!
Exaple: Fighter becomes a Yellow belt and gains Rat signature style and Dragon Dojo style from his master. When this fighter becomes Green belt, is the Signature style he gains the Dragon style that was his Dojo style during Yellow belt or does he get Dragon in addition to a new Signature style?
If these stack, then by the Perfect Master rank the fighter would have 10 signature styles and all 50 modifiers!? Well, I'm sure you know my thoughts on having so many styles, but if everyone else likes it then that's cool and I'll just avoid the Honor path myself probably. If it was me, I'd give the power you call Perfect Master once at Green belt but let it be used for any style once per fight and limit the total Sig styles to 3-5. You know all this from our past discussions, but which way would others like to see it? Lots of styles or a few styles which can be used more regularly?
Also, you might consider changing either the Perfect Master teir name or the Perfect Master ability name to avoid confusion.
Other than those quibbles, it looks great!
Zappo
Explorer
Uhm. An attack with a signature style AND a signature style modifier - not too unlikely for a high ranked fighter - would be three points. With the Perfect Attack power, it becomes four. A perfect master has all modifiers and will therefore always inflict three hits (plus one for the modifier, plus one for Perfect Attack). Isn't that overkill? Or is there something I'm missing?
And, a Chi Strike - Perfect Master hit, worth four hits, can pretty much instantaneously end any fight at round 1, unless the opponent is lucky, and there's nothing he can do about it.
Like Dalamar said, I can't tell if it is overpowered or underpowered without looking at the rest of the progressions... but that Chi Strike thing really looks scary when you have all style modifiers, 10 styles and another +1 hits on each and every attack. If it is like I understood it, and the other progressions have comparable powers, I'll expect most fights between high-rankers to be like a short nuclear war.
And, a Chi Strike - Perfect Master hit, worth four hits, can pretty much instantaneously end any fight at round 1, unless the opponent is lucky, and there's nothing he can do about it.
Like Dalamar said, I can't tell if it is overpowered or underpowered without looking at the rest of the progressions... but that Chi Strike thing really looks scary when you have all style modifiers, 10 styles and another +1 hits on each and every attack. If it is like I understood it, and the other progressions have comparable powers, I'll expect most fights between high-rankers to be like a short nuclear war.
Left-handed Hummingbird
First Post
Granted, it has been a while since I had the time for a fight and it might have changed, but the chance of getting a modifier isn't very big - 1 in 20 isn't it?Zappo said:
Wicht
Hero
Dalamar said:
Thanks to all who commented thus far and let me make a few points (I am really tired by the way so I may have to reexplain some of this later)
All the paths are getting a face lift and we will use the honor path as the guidestick by which we measure other paths and gauge how powerful they should be - this is the reason for doing one path at a time. do not compare this to what we have now Look at it on its own merits as a total rewrite of the rules. If we like this then we will change other things to work better with what we like. If we do not like this then we will make it what most of us want and then work from there.
Notice first of all the greater difficulty in gaining ranks - advancement will not be near as fast - Lady Tsin, under these rules would still most likely be a green belt.
Losing ranks will also be harder - it would require four straight losses in a row by a belted fighter from rank 0. Thus more people will stay in their belted rank longer.
Notice too that the dojo structure can be as permenant or as temporary as the person wants - if a green belt gives a dojo style to a yellow and then becomes a brown belt, the yellow belt does not lose their style.
Phoenix I know does not like the large number of sigs. Actually Tsin wanted even more and I am keeping it down to 10 by perfect master level in the above set of rules. Remember however that most people will be yellow and green for much longer and it will take a lot of work to ever reach perfect master. This means the majority of players will only ever have 2-4 sig styles.
the odds of a perfect master drawing a 3 point generated move is 1 in 100, using perfect master (we can change that name) it can be 1 in 20. And yes with perfect attack this gives a 4 point hit. Combined with fist of fury it is entirely possible for a perfect master to get a 8 point hit. However it is important to remember that if a player puts all their eggs in this basket there are ways it can be lost (dirty trick comes to mind) and again the perfect master is supposed to be the best toe to toe fighter possible in the game. And then too 1 loss knocks them off their perch.
Chi strike is powerful I will admit but the other fighter can always draw a better move 50/50 chance. Chi strike incidentally is not my idea it is Vanor's. The perfect master idea is Phoenix's. Fist of fury is mine. The list of modifiers is mine and Tsins.
And again, if this seems good we will balance the other paths and insure they are as good as this.
Left-handed Hummingbird
First Post
Personally, I love it 100%.
Zappo
Explorer
OK, got it. I was forgetting that you don't always get a sig style modifier. A perfect master will always deal two hits, sometimes three (at least once per match with PM), rarely four, and have Ki Strike to boot. Fist of Fury is powerful, but can be countered. That's OK for the maximum rank that a path can offer!
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Wicht
Hero
Wicht said:
We can add Dalamar (forgot his comment), Graydoom, Zappo and Midknight.
Phoenix is thus far the lone voice of dissent (but willing to give)
Thats 7 for, one against - pretty good - I will give this a day or two more and then move on to the Yakuza if there are no big changes.
I think I will take Phoenix's advice on one thing and change the power perfect master's name to simply "Mastery" which means that now it has had three names total...
Left-handed Hummingbird
First Post
Yes, nine or ten sounds reasonable for a majority. However, seeing as almost everybody has been positive to this point, I think it is fair to assume that those who haven't voted yet won't be against.
Lady Tsin, I'm sure, would vote in favor, too.
Lady Tsin, I'm sure, would vote in favor, too.
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Phoenix8008
First Post
Wicht, one thing you have not covered in detail for the Honored path is Dojo's. As usual, a Yellow belt can join a Dojo, but all other details are missing. Looking at the powers, it doesn't say at what point a person can open a Dojo.
One thing I'd like to see different from the current rules is this: At the Dojo Master teir, they should not be required to shut down the Dojo which they themselves built. It should just be another Dojo in the group. In fact it should be obvious that it should be the FIRST Dojo in the group. Or should there not even be such a structure? Should any fighter be able to teach any lower teired fighter and therefore be considered to be a dojo master in their own right?
What do the rest of you think?
One thing I'd like to see different from the current rules is this: At the Dojo Master teir, they should not be required to shut down the Dojo which they themselves built. It should just be another Dojo in the group. In fact it should be obvious that it should be the FIRST Dojo in the group. Or should there not even be such a structure? Should any fighter be able to teach any lower teired fighter and therefore be considered to be a dojo master in their own right?
What do the rest of you think?
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Zappo
Explorer
Yes... I think these rules would tend to create more of a hierarchical structure (where the vast majority of fighters are both students and teachers), than a dojo structure (many students, few teachers, no overlapping).Phoenix8008 said:
What's the setup we're going to obtain... something like "I am Arnold, student of Brian, who is student of Carlos, who is student of Deianera, who is student...", or like "I am Deianera the Dojo Master. My students are Carlos, Arnold and Brian. My dojo is aligned to the Grandmaster Ernest."?
Let me throw in the 9th vote in favor of this setup then 
(WHOOHOOO! I can post again)
I agree the dojo stuff needs to be clarified a bit, as I remember Wicht favored the "Lady Diamond student of Vanor, Student of Tsin" setup.
Where I pefered the more established form of it. Lady Diamond student of the Dragon of the west wind dojo, run by master vanor, who is part of Tsin's group.
But both do have their merrits... Perhaps we should discuss what way people like best?
But as to the powers/tiers and such I say we go for it as Wicht laid it out
oh and btw, Thanks for including my chi strike, I had thought that was a dead one...
(WHOOHOOO! I can post again
)I agree the dojo stuff needs to be clarified a bit, as I remember Wicht favored the "Lady Diamond student of Vanor, Student of Tsin" setup.
Where I pefered the more established form of it. Lady Diamond student of the Dragon of the west wind dojo, run by master vanor, who is part of Tsin's group.
But both do have their merrits... Perhaps we should discuss what way people like best?
But as to the powers/tiers and such I say we go for it as Wicht laid it out
oh and btw, Thanks for including my chi strike, I had thought that was a dead one...
Wicht
Hero
Ok - let me address my thoughts to the dojo structure...
In the committee we tried to figure out when a person could open a dojo and so-on and so forth. As I was thinking about it last week it struck me that simpler was better, hence dojo style for four ranks as opposed to dojo student, dojo teacher, dojo master, dojo elder.
The dojo student rule addresses the structure. To learn a dojo style you have to have a teacher of higher rank- period... thus a yellow belt could learn from a green, brown, black, grandmaster, perfect master. This also means there is no worries if a yellow is joined to a green and the green goes to brown. Plus it enables a brown to keep open a dojo they have started.
The earliest one can open a dojo is at green belt- this dojo can be open for the career of the fighter as long as they don't drop to yellow. Random thought- accepting students should be the choice of the teacher.
The structure of any single dojo includes the head of the dojo and all those below him and those below his students and so on and so forth. Let us not make rules though about what you have to do in your dojo as far as "structure" more than the basics.
Sidhe Li for instance, a wandering teacher might teach three students. Two of those might settle down and open dojos whilst the third also becomes a wandering teacher. Though they all continue to look to him as a teacher. The rules allow for this. Or Tsin might start a dojo, have it grow and open up "branch offices" managed by some of her favorite students. And while Tsin a brown belt has green belts managing offices and teaching prospects, she may still take the odd yellow belt under her wing or accept green belts as students, even though they have opened their own dojos elsewhere. The rules allow for all this too. In other words the rules are specifically vague to allow for role-playing whilst creating a structure that allows one to know who is under whom.
It is advantegous however for one who becomes a grandmaster to have as many in their own one dojo structure as possible.
I mentioned in another thread but this is a good place to bring it up again. Students who want to switch dojos (or join an existing dojo if they don't belong to one yet) should be free to do so, but they must declare at the beginning of a fight their desire to do so and drop any known dojo style before the fight.
In the committee we tried to figure out when a person could open a dojo and so-on and so forth. As I was thinking about it last week it struck me that simpler was better, hence dojo style for four ranks as opposed to dojo student, dojo teacher, dojo master, dojo elder.
The dojo student rule addresses the structure. To learn a dojo style you have to have a teacher of higher rank- period... thus a yellow belt could learn from a green, brown, black, grandmaster, perfect master. This also means there is no worries if a yellow is joined to a green and the green goes to brown. Plus it enables a brown to keep open a dojo they have started.
The earliest one can open a dojo is at green belt- this dojo can be open for the career of the fighter as long as they don't drop to yellow. Random thought- accepting students should be the choice of the teacher.
The structure of any single dojo includes the head of the dojo and all those below him and those below his students and so on and so forth. Let us not make rules though about what you have to do in your dojo as far as "structure" more than the basics.
Sidhe Li for instance, a wandering teacher might teach three students. Two of those might settle down and open dojos whilst the third also becomes a wandering teacher. Though they all continue to look to him as a teacher. The rules allow for this. Or Tsin might start a dojo, have it grow and open up "branch offices" managed by some of her favorite students. And while Tsin a brown belt has green belts managing offices and teaching prospects, she may still take the odd yellow belt under her wing or accept green belts as students, even though they have opened their own dojos elsewhere. The rules allow for all this too. In other words the rules are specifically vague to allow for role-playing whilst creating a structure that allows one to know who is under whom.
It is advantegous however for one who becomes a grandmaster to have as many in their own one dojo structure as possible.
I mentioned in another thread but this is a good place to bring it up again. Students who want to switch dojos (or join an existing dojo if they don't belong to one yet) should be free to do so, but they must declare at the beginning of a fight their desire to do so and drop any known dojo style before the fight.
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