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(YB-Meta-Rules) Honor Path progressions and powers


On the old board I summed up the progress of the rules commitee thus far.

It seems like a good idea to take up the discussion of the Honor Path on the new boards. Before I get into specifics though, what concepts do people have about the Honor path.

As I see it the Honor path has the following ideals/ goals/focus...

1) They should be the path most focused on pure fighting skills. They hit hard and they hit fast.

2) They are more concerned with honor and skill than they are with goodness. Thus honor fighters can be good and kind or cold and aloof, but they are honorable and focused on their skills

3) The followers of the honor path tend to gravitate into dojos. Being in a Dojo allows the honor fighter to hone their skills better and faster, though those not in a Dojo are still formidalbe foes.

Sound Good? What would you add? What would you change? We are interested about concept at the moment - not about actual rules, so feel free to suggest concepts even if you have no idea how to implement those concepts.


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First Post
Wicht, your concepts sound agreeable so far. With followers of Honor being the best fighters, would you say that someone not in a dojo might be equal to others of the same teir, whereas Honor followers in Dojos would be superior to all of equal rank?

My only two gripes about the current Honor path are this:

1. They need to be able to stay in/with the dojo structure longer. I don't see why someone (currently Brown belt) that can oversee multiple Dojo's has to give up the Dojo which they created. Makes no sense to me.

2. They need some power that does not depend on the generator for it to work. Sig styles are great, but when every other path has stuff that always works when they want it to, then the Honor fighters can't really be the best fighters around.

I don't know if these are more specific than what you are looking for right now or not, but I figured I'd add them just in case. I know they probably sound familiar to you from the original committee e-mails, but the rest may not have heard so I put them into the discussion since that's what this thread is for.


Well, concerning dojos, (I know I said not to go into specifics) but I really think the easiest and best way to represent being in a dojo is an extra sig move which gives the one in a dojo a 1/50 chance of getting a better move than the one not in the dojo.


First Post
While it is nice to have these sig styles, in the whole time I've been a Yellow Belt I've never drawn one, nor have I benefitted from Style Immunity except for once when Lady Tsin changed my style to that of my enemy. I agree with Phoenix that something else needs to be part of it as well. I also agree that dojo membership should be maintained longer.


I think it is certain that the Dojo structure needs to be more permanent.

As for sig styles, a yellow belt under the current generator has only a 1 in 50 chance of getting their style which means if the average fight last 5 to 10 rounds, they really should only be drawing it on the average every 5 fights or so.

But by increasing the number of sig styles any one fighter can know you increase the odds of drawing that style, so that if a yellow belt learns both a sig style and then gains a "dojo style" they now have a 1 in 25 chance of getting a sig style.


First Post
I like that better. :) The question is (if I remember from the committee) how many styles should one fighter end up accumulating, and should Style immunity remain in effect?


Well, as you probably remember me saying in the committee, I think that the honor path should learn somewhere around 10 styles by the top (giving them a 1 in 5 chance) and immunities should stay. By top we mean that ultra hard to get to 7th tier.

Immunities for style modifiers on the other hand can probably go.


First Post

While it's true that a 1 in 25 chance is better than a 1 in 50 chance, ask Lady Tsin who is a Brown belt how many times she has gotten to use a Sig style or Sig Modifier in a fight. I think the answer could be counted on one hand.

I also remmeber what your response to that situation was rules-wise back in the original committee: whole bucket loads of Sig Styles and Modifiers. While your Fists of Fury is good (getting extra moves generated to go against one enemy move in the same round), it still only gives you another posibility of getting a Sig style or modifier followed by the possibility of it being a better move and therefore actually scoring points with it.

Too many "if's" for me. They need something that WILL have an effect (barring the opponent using a Dirty Trick to force a redo of the round, of course), not just better odds.


Well I do not think any of the powers are ever certain to work. You might dirty trick one thing only to have your opponent get something better. Sneaky trick I have seen fail and Holy Day fails quite often. So I am not sure of any power that is %100 percent certain of guaranteeing a round victory.


Oh, there is one thing that always clenches a round victory - slipped my mind - immunities - barring the other guy being immune to your attack of course.


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First Post
Okay, so immunity is the only thing that always works, but you understand what I mean. With most powers there can be some strategy to them because you can choose when you want to use them. Also, you get to use most of these powers once per fight. With Sig stuff based only on the generator, you have no control and no way to use it more often without adding lots of styles.

Why not something like my previously proposed 'Practice Makes Perfect' power, where once per fight the player can change the Sig Style that they generated into a Sig Style that they know already (if the fighter was a dojo member).

Here is a quote of your response from a YB Rules committee e-mail about this very power.

"The practice makes perfect is alright, but I prefer fist of fury as it
allows the extra flag to be gained against the undead. The energy drain of the undead makes sig styles worthless. Fist of fury compensates better for this weakness better than practice makes perfect."

Since your main objection was concerning how it affected undead which are no longer a factor, what do you think of the power on it's own as a possible solution to the problem?
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Well actually your idea was incorporated :)

We had (Tsin and me mostly I think) decided to incorporate it into the top tiers, beginning with black belt IIRC.

The reason was that in effect the only difference between your idea and fist of fury was flavor (after the undead were removed). Their effects are virtually identical as is the way in which they are used. Both are used whenever the player thinks they have a good winning move. Both are used at will. I really am not sure what difference you see between the chance of one and the chance of the other.

The thing I ended up liking about having fist of fury AND Practice makes Perfect (renamed Perfect Master) was the possibility of ending up with a potential 6 point move in one round due to the fact that the two powers stack quite nicely.


I wanted to bump this to see if anyone else had any concepts concerning the Honor path they would like to see incorporated before we lay out actual progression and powers. I spent this afternoon going through the various e-mails from the committee and tomorrow or monday depending on my schedule I will arrange the actual powers for the honor path according to their ranks and open the matter up to debate and discussion.


First Post
Well I havn't been here very long. So feel free to ignore me completely. But I think the advancement tree that I saw for the Honored warriors of the Path seemed kinda incomplete. If you are planning on making the Standard (or the dojo) tree more elaborate, I think you might also want to make it easier to get into the Path side of the advancement tree. Since the path warriors don't have that many advantages I don't see why someone can't choose to be one earlier on. That would make things alittle different. (not that things arn't great so far that I've seen:D ).
Right (as everyone knows) now one must up to yellow belt, green then finally red belt. Of course there are always exceptions with the closing of dojos and such, but I don't see the point of limiting the blue and orange belts.

But hey! I have played a total of 2 matchs and havn't really been here enough to see how it all works.

I just thought I would put in my 1 1/2 cents.
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My 2 eurocents

Wicht, when you say "most focused on pure fighting skills", what do you mean, rulewise? They should have more chances to win a fight? I don't think that is correct... all progressions should be about equal in fighting chances.

Maybe you meant that they should be good at fighting and lack in things that work 'outside' combat, like redemption, mercenary tactics, Marked, and others.

I think that the powers working for combat and the powers working outside combat should be kept distinct when talking about balance. That is, make sure that every fighter of any progression but of the same rank has on average the same chances as his opponent at winning the fight.


Zappo - I mean their skills are more about how hard they can hit, whereas the villains for instance have more sneaky and dirty skills.

I want all the paths to have equal powers (or equal chances in a fight) when we are done, and I realize too that there needs to be a clear distinction between powers that win fights and powers that define a path.

Phear - When we get to the light warriors we can talk about how one gets in and out of the path. For now though, IMO Honor warriors should be able to become honor warriors through either, advancing as a white belt or being redeemed Yakuza.


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Actual Honor Path Progression and Powers

The Honor Path

Concept: The honor path is the path of pure fighters. They hit hard and fast. The warrior on the path of honor cares less about concepts like good and evil and more about concepts like dignity, honor, and self-worth. Honor warriors are better when they are part of a structured dojo.

Ranks and Progression:
White Belt: No ranks
Yellow Belt: 0-2
Green Belt: 0-4
Brown Belt: 0-6
Black Belt: 0-8
Grand Master: 0-10
Perfect Master: no ranks

Special Rules: Warriors on the Path of Honor do not lose belt rank as easily as some other fighters. Before falling from one belt to the lower belt because of a defeat, Honor fighters have three ranks of disgrace. Thus a Yellow Belt 0 that loses a fight becomes a Yellow Belt Disgraced 1 and losing another fight would make them Yellow Belt Disgraced 2. A single victory however will erase all disgrace, bringing them back to Belt 0.

Perfect Masters have no rank and a single loss will drop them down to GrandMaster 10.

Special Powers and Abilities
Yellow Belt: Signature Style, Dojo Style, Fist of Fury,
Green Belt: Signature Style, Dojo Style, Chi Strike, Master of Emotions
Brown Belt: Signature Style, Dojo Style, Fist of Fury, master of Movement
Black Belt: Signature Style, Dojo Style, Mastery, Master of Shadows
Grand Master: Signature Style, Dojo Master, Mastery, Master of Wealth
Perfect Master: Signature Style, Perfect Attack, Mastery, Supreme Master

Explanation of Powers
Signature Style: If a fighter uses a move with a signature style he knows and wins the round, he wins an extra point. Fighters are immune to moves generated containing a signature style they know. Signature styles are normally chosen from the style used in the last round the flags started at neutral. If this style is already known, the next winning move is used and so on.

Dojo Style: When a fighter obtains the ability to have a new dojo style they must join a dojo, or be in a dojo structure already, to actually gain it (Except when there are no fighters of higher rank - in such a case a fighter may pick their own dojo style). Dojo styles are learned from a teacher (an honor fighter of higher rank) and must be known by the teacher as a signature style (not as a dojo style). As long as the teacher's dojo structure has an honorable record (at least as many wins as losses) then the student may benefit from the dojo style as if it were a signature style. If the teachers dojo structure (meaning the teacher and all under her or under her students) gains a dishonorable record no benefit at all is gained from the dojo style. When a fighter gains new belt rank, a known dojo style automatically becomes a signature style.

Fist of Fury A fighter with fist of fury may once per fight per fist of fury known, post a second generated move. This second move is not compared to the opponents move. If the first generated move scores points then the second generated move scores points as well and the points from both moves are added together. Fist of Fury may not be used in connection with chi strike!

Chi Strike A fighter with chi strike can hit so hard the opponent has no choice but to react. Once per match a fighter with the power can declare any generated move to be a chi strike. The fighter however must post first in the round in order to do so. The effect of the chi strike is such that the opponent can use no power other than that which results from the random generator (i.e Sig style/location/modifier). Powers that may not be used include Holy Day, Dirty Trick and Sneaky Trick. Chi strike may not be used in connection with Fist of Fury but may be used with Perfect Master.

Mastery: The fighter may upon obtaining this power designate one signature style of his as being perfectly mastered. Thereafter, once per fight per style so mastered, the fighter can switch the generated style in a move with the style he has mastered.

Dojo Master: The Dojo Master oversees a number of different dojos and teachers. He may, at the beginning of any of his fights, designate a style known by anyone in his dojo structure as a signature style for that fight.

Perfect Attack: All attacks made by the Perfect Master score an extra point if successful.

Modifier Powers: master of emotions/movement/shadows/wealth/Supreme Master
The 50 modifiers in the generator will be broken into 5 lists (modifiers will have to be altered for this). A fighter who has for example gains the Master of Emotions will know the modifiers: avenging, ferocious, cautious, relentless, calm, confidant, joyful, courageous, wrathful, sad. Successfully using a move containing a modifier will garner an extra point for the round.

The other four modifier lists are as follows:
Moving: crouching, falling, flying, falling, rolling, running, tumbling, leaping, twisting, balancing, speeding

Shadowy: Tricky, invisible, stealthy, sneaky, sly, evasive, secret, unseen, hidden, shadowy

Wealth: diamond, jade, onyx, pearl, opal, gold, silver, topaz, emerald, ruby

Supreme: irresistible, invincible, mighty, perfect, faultless, flawless, pure, superior, transcendent, supreme
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Jackal said:
looks cool

Good - most of this was already figured by me, vanor and Tsin back in December, lest any think this is all my doing - anyone have any other gripes, quibbles or comments.

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