Yeah that's right, I killed a DRAGON single handed

[Sigurd]

Problem is world Ecology

Killing dragons your whole career, Man to Dragon, etc..

What about the ecology of a world. Dragons Take a long time to grow, don't reproduce too quickly and consume a lot of resources - not just treasure (but that's an issue too).

Dragons are not close to each other because they need to eat.

Dragons are smart and can fly so if you are a threat whats in it for the dragon to stick around?

If you are going to make lots of dragons you better have a world that can support them. If you play that they are intelligent and don't realise the strength they have in numbers....


S




btw there are only 2 major dragons in English Lit before 1900. Beowulf's Dragon - a scandinavian import and St George's Dragon. The other significant one is from the norse tale of Sigurd and the Ring. The Norse have to be the best source for dragon culture.

 

[Gomez]

I believe your thinking about the dragon Fafnir that was killed by Siegfried.

 

[sniffles]

As a player I've only run into a dragon twice in a game. The first time we would have been toast if we hadn't figured out how to talk our way out of it.

On the second occasion, we were 2nd level PCs, travelling with a party of higher-level NPCs. The NPCs went off to find a dragon - not to kill it, but to make a deal with it for a magic item. The rest of us were left behind. The NPCs didn't come back. We don't know what happened to them. All of us were too scared of the abyssal black dragon to go try to find out.

I think dragons should be impressive, but they don't have to be epic. A friend of mine wants all dragons to be really enormous physically, which I find hard to accept. Even if fantasy worlds aren't realistic, just how many 150-foot monsters can a world support?

The same friend, though, is thinking of designing a campaign around worship of a dragon. That could be interesting. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Endur]

My favorite PC killed a Dragon, almost single-handed.

D&D 3.0 rules

My character had used a scroll of the Paladin spell Holy Sword on his favorite weapon.

Various buff spells had been cast on my character, including fly and haste.

I partial charged the Dragon in the air, and then followed up with a full attack.

A smite evil, a critical hit, and some other hits, and the Dragon was in deep trouble.

The Dragon full attacked me, did some damage.

On my turn it was all over for the dragon.

 

[focallength]

Few things Dm's keep in mind, is that all elder dragons have acess to high level spells, magic items and have a very high intelligence. Most dragons are played as monsters who just sit on top of piles of gold and breathe *fire*. what are you going to do when a dragon starts teleporting, polymorphing, maximizing breath weapon, etc...
Lets say you do manage to do the dragon some harm, he will fly* (teleport, D.Door) away and go get more dragons. then your in trouble when his 15 friends come and see whats causing all the ruckus.

 

[focallength]

If I was a dragon, and saw a guy in armor looking all big and bad with his shiny sword. Id hit him with a few breath attacks, follow it up with some maxed out lightning bolts and if that didnt work Id go find a nice big ( small house )rock and drop it on him. I would be smart enough to know that he wants me to come close and thats the last place I should be.

 

[F5]

I've been doing just that, actually,

How did you set this up? Do you plan on using dragons solely as monstrous opponents and beasts to be slain, or are they going to be plotting, scheming BBEGs, with secret organizations and plots to overcome, and whatnot. It sounds to me like you're leaning more towards the latter, with the lizardman incursion plotline.

This is why I think an all-dragon campaign could work; they're smart enough to fill just about any role. Need a master of a spy organization? Polymorphed green dragon works great. Need a fearsome beast guarding an ancient tomb? Same green dragon works just as well. Rather than just having dragons be a monster to be fought, or a fearsome and unknowable force of nature, make them into NPCs that interact with the players on their own level.

What about the ecology of a world....If you are going to make lots of dragons you better have a world that can support them.

That's what interests me about this; creating a world in which an all-dragon ecology makes some approximation of sense....

Aw, heck. This is another thread brewing, I can tell. Gotta go for now, but I'll probably log back in later tonight and start one up.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I've seen several groups do that. I blame it on meta-game thinking. The players think that the DM won't put anything in the game that they can't beat. Several groups have had to learn (and re-learn) that that's not the way I run games. I like games where low level characters and high CR monster cross paths.

The problem is that players must use player knowledge to survive in that situation.
Characters might logically think this way: "That 10' tall giant could be a problem. But, we took down a 9' tall giant last week in three hits. And we've seen halflings defeat warriors twice their size, so why can't we? We can handle this guy."
No, that was a CR 3 ogre and this is a CR 7 hill giant. The 2nd-level party is quickly slaughtered.
Likewise for dragons: "We've taken out a 25' long poison-stinging dragon. This one is also 25' but it can breathe fire - fortunately we have spells to protect against that. We can take it." No, sorry - a Huge dragon is a much bigger threat than an equally-sized wyvern. But how could PCs know that?

How can characters possibly judge the CR of an opponent? Players can, because they know the color-size-DC correlations. But, unless the PCs have heard that this creature has slaughtered an entire tribe of giants, the PCs will likely decide based on its size compared to other things they've fought - which will have them overmatched. They won't have any way to know the relative power of its breath weapon versus their protections until they fight it.
A PC might be confident because he has used Hold Monster to great effect. It's probably a very high knowledge (arcana) DC to know that dragons are immune to paralysis.
Or the PC might be confident because he has used Confusion to great effect. It's probably a very high DC to know that dragons have both SR and outstanding mental fortitude.

Unless you're prepared to give the PCs fairly precise information on just how tough this dragon is and how resistant it is to everything they can do, they shouldn't be faulted for trying to be heroes.

 

[Kalendraf]

I haven't seen a dragon go down single handed yet, but I have seen a fairly tough demon encounter play out that way...

In the particular battle, a flying vrock was the main enemy w/ some minions on the ground engaging the party. IIRC, the paladin had been buffed with a fly and bull's strength and something else boosting his damage. His weapon was a +1 holy long sword (not bane, but +3 vs. evil outsiders). He charged at the vrock, declared a Smite, rolled a crit and backed it up. He nearly rolled max damage (~36 from fixed bonuses doubled + 2d8 + 2d6 = 64 max) on the crit. On the Vrock's turn, I decided to have it try it's Screech attack to stun the paladin since forcing him to drop his weapon at this point would really hose him, but the paladin saved. On the 2nd round, the paladin connected with both of his attacks, rolled nearly max damage again (10 + d8 + 2d6 = 30 max per attack) and he destroyed the vrock. Meanwhile, the rest of the party easily handled the stuff on the ground. What was supposed to be a really hard fight was resolved in just a couple of rounds.

Though it wasn't a dragon, it could have been, and the result would have been similar. I think a ranger (favor enemy = dragon) armed with a bane vs. dragon weapon could do it fairly easily with the right support spells and equipment.

 

[ThirdWizard]

How did you set this up? Do you plan on using dragons solely as monstrous opponents and beasts to be slain, or are they going to be plotting, scheming BBEGs, with secret organizations and plots to overcome, and whatnot. It sounds to me like you're leaning more towards the latter, with the lizardman incursion plotline.

Ayup, plotting and scheming BBEGs, led by the oldest of the dynasty. The location in the game is the ancient lands of a long-dead empire (killed because they started a war with a god that they couldn't win). This means lots of old lost treasure to be discovered (which dragons love), but it also means lots of adventurers about (which dragons hate). So, for the moment, the dragons are playing it safe and not attacking the nearby cities so much as trying to find what they can in the lands that they control. This gives a reasonable explaination for why outright war hasn't begun... yet!

What about the ecology of a world. Dragons Take a long time to grow, don't reproduce too quickly and consume a lot of resources - not just treasure (but that's an issue too).

Not all dragons are giant monstrocities that have to eat tons to survive. Actually, I don't think any have to eat tons to survive. I don't have the Draconomacon with me, but I think it deals with these issues. Besides, the land in question in my campaign is on the Outlands. Thems infinite.

If you play that they are intelligent and don't realise the strength they have in numbers....

Wouldn't them being intelligent make them less likely to just go on random killing sprees? They have goals, and they live a very long time. That's one reason dragons make great BBEGs, they can wait you out. Not as well as liches, but good enough. Besides, not too far to the south, in Planescape terms, is The Dwarven Mountain. I doubt they want to even draw the attention of a Realm. Not that they would actually do anything unless directly attacked, but the dragons can't be sure of that.

Admittedly, using dragons in this mannar takes some planning, but its well worth it, I think. The campaign doesn't even revolve around this plot-line, at least not yet.