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Years after completely ditching the system, WotC makes their move!

I wouldn't have to, because the Court doesn't care how long it took for WotC to get around to CK as long as its within the statute of limitations. Essentially, its a non-issue.

However, if they started doing selective enforcement- and whether or not it is selective or not is a question of fact to be decided in court- there could be an issue. Then WotC might have to show why it enforces its rights against some infringers and not others...and if they don't have a good reason, they could be in trouble. They could be deemed to have abandoned part or all of their rights.

For instance, if you post something on the internet and tell users its ok for them to copy it and share it, you cannot then turn around and sue someone for infringement if they repost it.

In this case, CK is relatively high profile- if WotC does not go after them, they'll have issues going after others.


I can actually buy this argument, but a good lawyer (like, the one CK would have needed to hire had they refused to comply with the request) would certainly have some evidence to suggest that WotC had abandoned at least part of their rights by doing nothing for quite some time. There are other violators out there, as well.

We really need to reform copyright laws in this country. As a corporation, you should only be able to go after individuals if you can actually show that they're causing you a financial harm in some way. Clearly, this wasn't the case with CrystalKeep.

Which brings us back to the original point of the thread: this isn't about money, or protecting anything WotC cares about, or them being in danger of losing anything IP related, so ... just what IS it about?

And really, did it accomplish ANYTHING at all?
 

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I can actually buy this argument, but a good lawyer (like, the one CK would have needed to hire had they refused to comply with the request) would certainly have some evidence to suggest that WotC had abandoned at least part of their rights by doing nothing for quite some time. There are other violators out there, as well.

Mere inaction or delayed action ≠ abandonment. To prove abandonment, the lawyer would have to prove that WotC did NOTHING to protect its rights and/or that they have acted inconsistently and selectively in enforcement...both damn tough to do.

We really need to reform copyright laws in this country. As a corporation, you should only be able to go after individuals if you can actually show that they're causing you a financial harm in some way. Clearly, this wasn't the case with CrystalKeep.

I disagree.

Disney went after an obscure animated porno producer who barely made a cent with his ripoffs of Disney characters in adult shorts and won. The harm, if any, was to the brand and associations and goodwill, not the bottom line.

Sometimes you don't want your product out in the stream of commerce at all. Prince went after people who released unauthorized copies of songs he was working on. Few of those songs were ever released commercially. He sued, not because he lost money- he actually gained money when the profits were confiscated- but because he felt the songs stolen were of inferior quality. The damage was not monetary, but to his public image.

And then there's a dirty little secret of IP law: sometimes you sue in copyright to protect other, less strongly protected forms of intellectual property. D&D isn't just a copyrighted game, its a set of trademarks, service marks and so forth...but defending all those other things can be tough, time consuming and expensive. But waving the copyright bat around gets people's attention: the fines are bigger; there's the threat of jail time; there's the loooonng duration of protection.

(BTW, its not just in the USA that corporations can go after infringers who haven't done financial harm.)

Which brings us back to the original point of the thread: this isn't about money, or protecting anything WotC cares about, or them being in danger of losing anything IP related, so ... just what IS it about?

You don't know that it wasn't about money or protecting their IP, etc.- nor do I- because 1) there are valid business reasons to do all of those things you dismiss and 2) we were not there in the boardrooms where these decisions were being made. We're all just speculating.

And really, did it accomplish ANYTHING at all?
Only time will tell.
 

When I was typing my last post, part of me started to wonder about whether one strand would unravel the entire blanket.

If WotC actually faced a challenge from a belligerent website creator refusing to pull down his D&D-themed information site, could they be in danger of losing not only some old 3.x copyrights, but 4E and the future as well? That would certainly explain their knee-jerk behavior a bit better on a financial basis.

It still doesn't explain allowing CK and sites like it to exist for this long, however. And that length of time of not caring (such as the entire time 3.5 was actually still actively on sale) is what allows us to speculate, with a high degree of confidence, that this action smacks of pettiness or reprisal against those people who refuse to jump on the 4E bandwagon.

Don't get me wrong, I understand it's not based in fact ... but it sure as hell is based in logic. The timing makes absolutely no sense at all.
 

As TSR going away proved...... :erm:
I think this was a slightly different situation. Or rather, I was thinking of a slightly different thing, because WotC won't go away any time soon because of Magic.

If, however, Hasbro decides the D&D rpg line is no longer profitable enough, they'll simply cancel it and sit on the license, mabe trying to sell other stuff using the brand name, say, D&D action figures and movies.

I don't see Hasbro selling the license to any other company to continue publishing D&D rpg material. I'm not even sure the Paizo guys (and gals) would be interested, since the license would probably be expensive and their Pathfinder stuff is selling well enough without the brand name.
 

When I was typing my last post, part of me started to wonder about whether one strand would unravel the entire blanket.

If WotC actually faced a challenge from a belligerent website creator refusing to pull down his D&D-themed information site, could they be in danger of losing not only some old 3.x copyrights, but 4E and the future as well? That would certainly explain their knee-jerk behavior a bit better on a financial basis.

Its always going to be case specific, but generally speaking, I don't think a goof in a legal struggle with a 3.X site, for instance, would cost WotC their 4Ed rights. But if they lose because of a certain error on their part that they repeated with 4Ed or other properties, then the precedent of losing a case in 3.X could, indeed, result in them losing rights associated with those other properties. (That's one reason why contracts get redrafted as opposed to copied and recycled...)

It still doesn't explain allowing CK and sites like it to exist for this long, however. And that length of time of not caring (such as the entire time 3.5 was actually still actively on sale) is what allows us to speculate, with a high degree of confidence, that this action smacks of pettiness or reprisal against those people who refuse to jump on the 4E bandwagon.

Your "confidence" is based on a misunderstanding of law and an absence of facts. The only timetable that matters is whether or not they chose to enforce their rights within the time set forth in law. If they had filed their first lawsuits against ten thousand infringers at 3:45PM the day before their rights expired, the court wouldn't care. They'd check to see if they filed the documents properly and go on from there.

That lack of caring is, in the eyes of the law, evidence of nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I understand it's not based in fact ... but it sure as hell is based in logic. The timing makes absolutely no sense at all.

No its not logic. There are lots of reasons for doing it now- just because you don't know which one or ones it is doesn't change that. You're asserting a position based on a gut feeling, because the only fact you have is that it happened. For all you know, they could have been tossing this around their legal department, plotting strategy, identifying targets, and debating whether it was worth their time, energy and (most importantly) their money for years before greenlighting this.

Is it possible they're doing this out of spite? Sure. They also could have done it because of a message someone got on a Ouija board or some new hotshot in legal wanted to prove he's Courtroom Ace #1. Its far more likely than any of those scenarios, though, that with margins as tight as they probably are that Hasbro/WotC isn't going to spend $$$ on their legal departments initiating costly lawsuits or taking actions that could result in costly lawsuits without a valid business reason to do so.

Or to put it a different way, if WotC DID do this out of spite and generated a slew of cases because infringers X, Y and Z didn't feel like complying, they'd have to justify their actions to Hasbro. And then what are they going to say? "Almighty Hasbro, we thought our profit margins on 4Ed were a little tight, so we decided on a scorched earth policy against our previous product to drive the market towards it...which has unfortunately raised our legal fees 3000% this quarter."

That won't cut it. That's the kind of thing that gets people- management people, bosses, etc.- fired.
 
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Do any of you feel that Crystalkeep helped with 3e sales back in its heyday (which was why wotc tolerated its presence? And now that it has long outlived its usefulness...:confused:

I personally felt it was very useful for quickly determining if a particular feat, spell or template existed, though I can't credit it for actually spurring me to buy any splatbooks. :p
 

I don't see Hasbro selling the license to any other company to continue publishing D&D rpg material. I'm not even sure the Paizo guys (and gals) would be interested, since the license would probably be expensive and their Pathfinder stuff is selling well enough without the brand name.

Meh.

I don't care if the brand name dies, personally, so long as the game does not. The brand name seems to mean less and less (to me) with each passing year.

OTOH, other games with stronger connections to what the game means (to me) exist, and won't be going away soon.

There are lots of reasons for doing it now- just because you don't know which one or ones it is doesn't change that.

Out of curiosity, do you think any of those "lots of reasons" might also apply to EN World? And, if so, how do you feel about that?


RC
 

See, I was thinking about what's happened, who this most affects, and that's what pisses me off the most. You and I and all the current 3E players that go on the internet to read/talk about it...we're already set. I used crystalkeep for reference tons, but mostly out of laziness from actually looking at the books/pdfs. It was convenient, but not essential. Further, we've had plenty of time to download those CK pdfs, and still can with the mirror sites that are up...until those also get taken down.

But anyone coming in new to the hobby? The books are gone, the legal pdfs are gone, CK's gone....all they have left is d20srd. No access to splat material for them. The core 3E game is wonderful, it hooked me. But I wonder how well it can hold up with just the vanilla core when 4E's plastering their new releases every single month. It's also going to make character building and optimization advice much harder to provide. I can't count the number of times I've linked people to CK to find useful items for their concept. No more. I doubt ENWorld will let us openly pass along the pdfs in the threads, since it's clearly now considered legally questionable to even view the things. Even if they had the frivolously large amounts of money to just buy a bunch of books for a few feats or items for a single character...WotC's also taken away that route. Again, we can't "advocate" piracy by telling them where they can obtain the rulebooks they want, either.

THAT is the chilling effect the cumulative efforts of WotC to bury the previous editions (next up: complete deletion of all the old web articles) that I'm worried and furious about. It's insidious, cold hearted, brilliant, and evil, and I hate them for it. It absolutely makes good business sense, I won't argue with that. They've decided they don't need our money, and after that stage, there's no point in trying to play nice for them. Even though it makes sense for them, I'm still going to rage and vent about it on teh interwebs.
Remembering back when I first tried the game and my skepticism towards it, I shudder to think that some people might be in the same situation as I, but that those people would not pick up the beautiful, well-written books that started my gaming career. One look at the 4e books (never mind their actual content) would have probably put me off the hobby for good. The way the company has treated their 3e material, as if it had no value, is a potent reminder to those of us who know that it does.
 

Well, if they actually are doing this because they're in fear of losing their copyright and/or IP rights, you'd think they'd do it soon ...
It's not necessary to do it soon, it's only necessary to do it soon enough.

In fact, it's conceivable that by waiting as long as possible, WotC was being considerate toward CrystalKeep and the gamers who used it. For instance, if you assume a five-year period of infringement is required before IP rights are threatened, and WotC waited four years and eleven months, it's possible they'd do that to give gamers as much time as possible.

I'm not saying that's what happened -- God knows I am no longer a WotC fan at all -- and WotC would never admit it if it were true (for potential legal reasons), but it's possible that WotC waiting to enforce was out of benevolence, not spite (or the most likely attitude: indifference).
 

Do any of you feel that Crystalkeep helped with 3e sales back in its heyday (which was why wotc tolerated its presence? And now that it has long outlived its usefulness...:confused:

Yes, I really do feel that way. Some things a quick google search turned up below. Note that I'm sure wotc's thread purge destroyed plenty of years old examples of CK linking on their own freaking forums.

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2002: SCS: Custody Battle : Daily MTG : Magic: The Gathering
An article, on wotc's own site, mentioning looking on CK for magic the gathering rules! (Last paragraph)
"Okay, so I actually have one more thing -- a couple people didn't know what I was referring to with section "'K.11 -- Creature Type' from the Comprehensive Rules." That's understandable because there's no such section in the Comp. Rules. "K.11 -- Creature Type" is the title of the section about creature types in the rulings summary compiled by Stephen D'Angelo at crystalkeep.com. You can get more information about the Magic rules by clicking on "Rules" in the upper left of this Web page. (The Comp. Rules sections that deal with creature types include rule 212, "Card Type," rule 214, "Creatures," and rule 216 "Tokens.")"
 

Into the Woods

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