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Yet another alternate magic system

donm61873

First Post
I'm finally starting a serious 3E campaign, and am putting together some house rules before I start... Figured this would be the best place to get my ideas ripped apart before my players do it...

These changes are the most significant I'm making, and therefore the most likely to be changed as we play. First, all spellcasting classes gain the Eschew Materials feat - I've always ignored all but the more expensive material components by just assuming everyone has them..

But the biggest change is that there are no limits to the number of times a spellcaster may cast a spell they know in a day. Spellcasting requires a d20 roll, just like melee; a natural '20' result is an automatic success, and a natural '1' is an automatic failure. The base DC for spellcasting is 10 + (spell level x3). The spellcaster may apply their appropriate stat bonus (WIS/INT), and a bonus equal their caster level (rounded up).

For example, a first level cleric with a WIS of 16 casts Bless: DC is 13 (10 + 3). Caster has a bonus of +3 (WIS) and +1 (level). So, the cleric would need to roll a 9 or better to cast the spell. An 18th level wizard with an INT of 22 (bonus of 6+18=24) casting Time Stop (DC of 10+27=37) would need a roll of 13 or better.

If a spellcaster fails the spellcasting roll, the spell is NOT cast, and the spellcaster takes subdual damage equal to the spell level. So, cast as many spells as you want, and knock yourself out. Literally…

Since all spellcasters (even Bards) still “prepare” their spells, casting times (and changes to casting time from metamagic feats) are based on the concept that all spells are prepared.

Concentration rolls for spellcasting are done before the spellcasting roll; a failed Concentration check counts as failing the spellcasting roll also, with the effects noted above (subdual damage).

No changes to spell preparation - Wizards still need spell books (and Bards now have songbooks, or something similar). If they don't have them, well, that's what the Spell Mastery feat is still good for. If a spellcaster is unable to prepare spells for any reason, they are considered to be out of slots for the purposes of casting below. Preparation just doesn’t equate to memorization anymore. Clerics now study and learn “prayers” similar to how Wizards learn spells, they just don’t carry books around (ie, the number of spells a cleric knows increases like wizards), and they automatically know the appropriate domain spell when they gain that level of spells.

[NOTE: We’re probably going to be tweaking this system a lot in play at first, esp. since this means high-level Wizards can cast Time Stop repeatedly; also, I’d like to figure out how to combine this with Concentration to require only one roll for spellcasting.]
 

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Drawmack

First Post
so casting a 9th level spell requires an ability roll 36.

Let's see 19 + 5 + 9 = 23

nope need a natural 20 to cast that, I suggest dropping the x3, maybe ... maybe x2. Though I think this mechanic is far to owerpowered. A wizard can walk around casting all his spells all day long. ahhhhh. Me thinks you'll have a party of wizards and clerics. How do you get to the bottom of the 500 gorge, we jump and let the cleric heal us at the bottom.
 

donm61873

First Post
I've never been in a high-level game where the wizs and clerics in a party ran out of spells anyway...

And I think 19 + 5 + 9 = 33.


DonM.
 

willpax

First Post
With this system, I see higher level casters essentially being able to cast low level spells all day (failing only on a 1, and taking minor damage even if they do).

One clarification may be to adjust some of the spells that scale with caster level--casting a high-level magic missile or fireball as a 1st level/3rd level spell seems a bit too generous.

The math, as I understand it, for a 9th level spell: 10 + (9*3)= 37. A 17th level caster (+17, I'm not sure what needs to be rounded since you aren't dividing anything) with a 20 int (+5) would succeed on a 15 or better.

More interestingly, a wizard with more than 9 hit points and the experience to burn can simply attempt a wish spell every day when not doing anything better unless you limit what spells a caster can learn. You may want to consider which spells work well with this system and which spells may break it.
 

donm61873

First Post
What we're working on is a fix for our philosophical problem with the D&D spell system: why can a fighter swing that sword all day but the wizard is stuck with a fixed number of spells?

We're trying to find a balanced way to let the wizard cast all day, and yet not become godlike.

And I don't let wizards learn wish :)
[that spell doesn't quite work with the normal system, much less this...
 

Geoff Watson

First Post
A fighter can swing his sword all day because his sword is less effective than a spell. A combat spell can hit multiple targets, do lots of damage, or take out a foe with one hit. Spells also have a lot of non-offensive uses.

You would have to greatly reduce the spells effectiveness if you allow unlimited casting, as even unlimited first level spells would be too powerful.

Geoff.
 

Pbartender

First Post
Geoff Watson said:
A fighter can swing his sword all day because his sword is less effective than a spell. A combat spell can hit multiple targets, do lots of damage, or take out a foe with one hit.

Given the proper feats, so can a melee weapon.

Geoff Watson said:
Spells also have a lot of non-offensive uses.

So do skills.


Don... A better alternative would be to afflict the spellcaster with subdual wether or not the Spellcraft check is successful. So... A successful check casts the spell and inflicts subdual damage. A failed check fizzles the spell but you take subdual damage anyway.

Second, remember that subdual heals by the hour. Spellcasters using this method will be getting a lot more spells in general. Be careful with the amount of subdual damage inflicted. I've found a good equation to be... sub. damage = spell level + caster level. The advantage to adding caster level into the equation is that a spellcaster couls feasibly choose to cast a spell at a lower caster level, thereby inflicting less subdual damage.

If you want a DC for a Spellcraft check, simply make it equal to 10 + spell level + caster level.
 

donm61873

First Post
I noticed you said 'spellcraft' check; I assume you meant 'spellcast'.

So you're proposing the base DC for spellcasting is 10 + (spell level + effective caster level). The spellcaster may apply their appropriate stat bonus (WIS/INT), and a bonus equal their caster level (rounded up).

If a spellcaster fails the spellcasting roll, the spell is NOT cast, and the spellcaster takes subdual damage equal to 1d4/spell level (1 point for zero-level spells).

For example, a first level cleric with a WIS of 16 casts Bless: DC is 12 (10 + 1 +1). Caster has a bonus of +3 (WIS) and +1 (level). So, the cleric would need to roll a (12-4) 8 or better to cast the spell; failure does 1d4 points of subdual damage.

An 18th level wizard with an INT of 22 casts Time Stop; DC is 37 (10 + 9+ 18). Caster has a bonus of +6 (INT) and +18 (level). So, the wizard would need to roll a (37-24) 13 or better to cast the spell; failure does 9d4 points of subdual damage.

I'll admit - I like this, as it's not as harsh on low-level casters, but high-level casters still have to think about knocking themselves out...

Comments?
 
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Pbartender

First Post
donm61873 said:
I noticed you said 'spellcraft' check; I assume you meant 'spellcast'.

Actually, I did mean spellcraft. I hadn't realized you were making a new skill too. :) Remember you could also give synergy on this skill check from Knowledge (arcana). Feats such as Skill Focus could also enhance it.

donm61873 said:
So you're proposing the base DC for spellcasting is 10 + (spell level + effective caster level). The spellcaster may apply their appropriate stat bonus (WIS/INT), and a bonus equal their caster level (rounded up).

Correct.

donm61873 said:
If a spellcaster fails the spellcasting roll, the spell is NOT cast...

Correct.

donm61873 said:
...and the spellcaster takes subdual damage equal to 1d4/spell level (1 point for zero-level spells).

Not quite. I was suggesting that the subdual damage be equal to Spell level + Caster level. It makes it easy on the math, since the skill check DC is just the subdual damage + 10.

So a 1st level caster casting a Magic Missile would take 2 points of subdual, A 5th level caster casting magic missile would take 6 points of subdual. Of course, using this method, the 5th level caster couls choose to tone down the MM to 1st caster level, and only take 2 points. Make sense?

Cast at their minimum caster levels (for Cleric or Wizard), spells woud deal the following subdual damage...

0th - 1 point
1st - 2 points
2nd - 5 points
3rd - 8 points
4th - 11 points
5th - 14 points
6th - 17 points
7th - 20 points
8th - 23 points
9th - 26 points

Remember, an average 10th level Wizard with a constitution of 12 would have about 35 hit points, and he could cast up to 5th level spells.

Be warned, I've never really had a chance to play test these ideas.
 
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