yet another language thread

Eh. Too much trouble. Too many steps for the DM.

Ok, first I have to figure out what my NPC is saying, then I have to figure a DC for it, then I have to figure modifiers... Then, if the player rolls low I went through all that trouble for nothing, since now the NPC will simplify their statement into easy pieces until they can get their point across...
 

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MerakSpielman said:
Eh. Too much trouble. Too many steps for the DM.

Ok, first I have to figure out what my NPC is saying, then I have to figure a DC for it, then I have to figure modifiers... Then, if the player rolls low I went through all that trouble for nothing, since now the NPC will simplify their statement into easy pieces until they can get their point across...


Yeah; but the point is: some people get off on this sort of thing.
 

MerakSpielman said:
Eh. Too much trouble. Too many steps for the DM.

As opposed to any other skill in the game, where the DM sets a DC and people roll a d20 and add a modifier? It's not any more complex than standard skill checks, and it'd only come up in the RARE situation where you don't share any languages with the person you're talking to.

The point is, any game in which you remove the Common tongue will now create situations in which person A and person B should not be able to easily communicate. So, either you say flat out that the two can't pass information at all (bad idea), you say that they can pass it just fine (which makes the language skills even more useless), or you add some intermediate step.

That intermediate solution would almost always have to include some sort of chance element. You COULD say that the half-rank just only allows basic concepts, no rolling needed, but then you'll always get into arguments with the players over where exactly that line falls. On the other hand, with a DC-based system, the DM can eyeball a DC using some basic guidelines, and as long as it's not REALLY off, the players won't complain.

"I ask the merchant where the expensive weapon shop is."
"DC 11. What language?"
"Elvish. I'm only half-proficient, since I know High Elvish."
"+2 then."
(rolls a 3, failing badly)
"The merchant points to the west."
After wandering around for a few hours, the players find someone who speaks their language fluently, and get pointed in the right direction automatically.
 

Speak Language (rw-alternate) (Cha; Trained Only)
The Speak Language skill doesn't work like other skills. It works as follows.
  • You start at first level knowing one language based on your culture, gaining three ranks automatically. Additionally, you receive 1 rank per point of Intelligence bonus, which you may apply to any language; you can put more than 1 rank into a single language to be more fluent in it.
  • Each time you purchase a rank in Speak Language, you must choose a language that it applies to. There is almost no reason to need a language skill to go above 4 ranks, since 4 ranks equals perfect fluency. Additional ranks are only useful to aid in communicating with those not fluent.
  • Most languages belong to a language group. Whenever you try to express yourself in a language you have no ranks in, but you have ranks in another language in that language group, you can communicate as if you had 2 ranks lower than the related language you know.
  • If you have the Literate feat, you can read languages that you can speak. Most cultures gain the Literate feat automatically.
  • Whenever you wish to use any other Charisma-based skill in a method that involves language, you suffer a -5 penalty for each rank you have less than 3 in the language you are speaking in. A foreigner could easily intimidate someone by looking mean and dangerous, or bluff someone into blocking left as he attacks right, but he'd have to rely just on simple gestures and force of personality to try to lie to someone, entertain them, or negotiate with them. This penalty also applies to Perform check for the bardic music abilities Fascinate and Suggestion.
  • Whenever you want to express yourself in a language, consult the following chart:

Ranks : Fluency
0 : The language is practically unknown to you, and at best you know a handful of stock expressions. You cannot make Speak Language checks of this sort.
1 : You know the basics of the language, and can express and understand simple concepts.
2 : You can express and understand everyday concepts, but have trouble with complicated speech. You can understand speech as long as the topic remains fairly constant, but you have trouble following conversations when the subject changes.
3 : You are as fluent as any normal person who speaks that language, though you may have an accent.
4 : You understand the language with the knowledge of a scholar, and can freely use different accents as you desire. This rank is the equivalent of a highly technical, poetic, idiomatic, or slang-riddled piece of language, such that even normal native speakers may need one or two tries to figure out what's being said.

Expressing Yourself
Whenever you want to express yourself to another person in a language, if both you and the person you are speaking to have enough fluency in the language that you both understand, there is no need to make a Speak Language check. If you are not fluent enough, make a Speak Language check (DC 10), with a -5 penalty for each rank you have less than the necessary amount.

An adventurer with only 1 rank in Elvish tries to explain to an Elf that he is an adventurer and that he is in trouble. He does not need to make a check, since this is fairly simple. However, he also wants to explain that an invading army is approaching from the south, with a few thousand warriors. This is a somewhat complicated expression, so must succeed a DC 15 check. If he then wants to explain that the general is actually collaborating with an Elvish noble in this land, he would need to make a DC 20 check. Then, later, if he tried to convince the Elvish noble to stop aiding the invading army, our adventurer would suffer a -10 penalty to his Diplomacy check.

Understanding a Language
If you are trying to understand someone speaking to you in a foreign language, make a Sense Motive check (DC 10) with a -5 penalty for each rank you have fewer than the difficulty of the expression. If the speaker himself is not fluent enough, he must make a Speak Language check, and if he fails you suffer an additional -5 penalty.

If you are trying to read a language, make a Decipher Script check (DC 15) with a -5 penalty for each rank you have fewer than the difficulty of expression.

Spells and Translation
The Comprehend Languages spell grants you 1 rank in the chosen language. Tongues grants you 2 ranks in all languages. Greater Tongues (6th level spell) grants you 4 ranks in all languages.

Failure
If you fail an attempt to express yourself or to understand someone else by 4 or less, you may still get close the mark, the equivalent of a very simplified version of what you meant to say. Failing by 5 or more means the speaker can't understand you at all. Failing with a natural 1 means the speaker misinterprets what you say to mean something drastically different.



This is from my personal experiences trying to learn Japanese. I'd say I probably have 2 ranks in Japanese, but I still stumble sometimes when I try to talk to my professor. I can order a plane flight, ask about prices at a store, tell someone I feel a pain in my side, or tell the cops someone stole my stereo, but I'd need probably ten minutes to translate a page of text that talks about the timeline of the first visit to Japan by America. And I might need an hour to figure out a page of text out of the Tale of Genji.

I think I like this.
 


Darklone said:
Guys, excuse me, I'm in a Kalamar pimp mood today... do you know the variant language system from the KPG?

Hmm, that's the system that takes 20 ranks (not skill points) to gain fluency in a language, right?

Yeah, I'll pass on that one, thanks.
 



Darklone said:
Nope. 10 ranks for Shakespear :D

6 ranks is fluently.

I think that RW's proposal, modified to spread out over 5 ranks, would work quite well (though I'd impose a steeper penalty for trying to grasp a related language).

Say that 4 represents a formally educated speaker and 5 a specialised scholar.

I would hesitate to represent Shakes' knowledge of English as of the very highest. Fluency or scholarship doesn't amount to poetic talent; ranks in (the?) Bard do.
 

Darklone said:
Nope. 10 ranks for Shakespear :D

6 ranks is fluently.

No, 12+ ranks for Shakespear. I chose 10 ranks because it lets you, "pass for a native speaker". At 9 ranks you still have a foreign accent...

The description of 10-11 ranks ("Knowledge Level", 2nd column) is "fluent". 6 ranks is just "competent" -- enough for Joe Farmer, maybe, but not for diplomacy or 'shop talk'.
 
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