Yet Another Take on Duelist as a Core Class

[harmyn]

Hey everyone. Once, a good ways back, I attempted to make a duelist core class, like a great many other folks. well I was never thrilled with that attempt. So in a fit of inspiration and boredom I decided to take another whack at one, this time using 3.5 rules as a basis. No flavor text or fancy stuff at the moment. I am mainly focused on the mechanics until they seem somewhat reasonable. besides, we've all seen the flavor text on duelists more than a few times.

Please let me know what you all think of it and if you have any thoughts at how to improve and/or tweak it please let me know. This is just a barebones deal but the numbers is always the hard part.
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The Duelist

Level.....Base Attack....Fort.......Ref.....Will.....Special
...1.......+1....................+0.....+2......+0.......Bonus Feat, Canny Defense
...2.......+2....................+0.....+3......+0.......Blades Mastery +1
...3.......+3....................+1.....+3......+1.......
...4.......+4....................+1.....+4......+1.......Bonus Feat
...5.......+5....................+1.....+4......+1.......Sneak Attack +1d6
...6.......+6/+1...............+2 .....+5......+2........
...7.......+7/+2...............+2 .....+5......+2........Blades Mastery +2
...8.......+8/+3...............+2 .....+6......+2........Bonus Feat
...9.......+9/+4...............+3 .....+6......+3........Critical Precision (+1)
..10......+10/+5..............+3 .....+7......+3........Sneak Attack +2d6
..11......+11/+6/+1 .........+3 .....+7......+3........Parry Death’s Blow (1/day)
..12......+12/+7/+2 .........+4 .....+8......+4........Bonus Feat
..13......+13/+8/+3 .........+4 .....+8......+4........Blades Mastery +3
..14......+14/+9/+4 .........+4 .....+9......+4........
..15......+15/+10/+5........+5.....+9......+5........Sneak Attack +3d6
..16......+16/+11/+6/+1...+5 ....+10.....+5.........Bonus Feat
..17......+17/+12/+7/+2...+5 .....+10....+5........Parry Death’s Blow (2/day)
..18......+18/+13/+8/+3...+6 .....+11.....+6.......Critical Precision (+2)
..19......+19/+14/+9/+4....+6....+11.....+6........Blades Mastery +4
..20......+20/+15/+10/+5..+6....+12.....+6........Bonus Feat, Sneak Attack +4d6

Hit Dice: d8
Weapons: All simple melee weapons plus the following – bastard sword, longsword, rapier, scimitar and shortsword.
Armor: Duelists are trained only in the use of light armor and no shields.

Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + intelligence modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + intelligence modifier
Class Skills: Appraise (int), Bluff (cha), Craft (int), Diplomacy (cha), Gather Information (cha), Intimidate (cha), Jump (str), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility), Listen (wis), Perform (cha), Sense Motive (wis), Spot (wis), Swim (str)

BONUS FEATS: At 1st level, 4th level and ever 4 levels after a duelist receives a bonus feat in addition to the normal feats all characters receive. These feats must be chosen from the list that follows and the duelist must still meet all the normal prerequisites to obtain the feat unless it specifically states otherwise.
The following feats may be chosen: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Coordination, Dodge, Expert Parry, Greater Coordination, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Parry, Improved Reaction, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Incredible Parry, Mobility, Parry, Protective Parry, Quick Draw, Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and Whirlwind Attack.

CANNY DEFENSE (Ex): The duelist may add his intelligence modifier to his armor class. Anytime the duelist is denied his dexterity modifier, his canny defense bonus is also lost. If the duelist is ever more than lightly encumbered or wearing any armor considered heavier than light the canny defense bonus is lost.

BLADES MASTERY (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when fighting an opponent who is using one or more melee weapons (natural attacks and unarmed strikes do no count) the duelist may add +1 to their attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by another +1 at levels 7, 13 and 19.

SNEAK ATTACK: As duelists gain greater skill in striking their opponents they learn where to place the most devastating blows when catching their enemy ill prepared. This ability functions in the same way as the sneak attack ability described on p. 50 of the PHB.

CRITICAL PRECISION (Ex): Truly skilled duelists learn the secret to consisting landing lethal strikes when attacking. Critical precision adds 1 onto the final threat range of any weapon they are wielding. For example a duelist wielding a keen longsword would have a threat range of 16-20 (17-20 because of keen and a +1 for this power). At 18th level this bonus becomes +2.

PARRY DEATH'S BLOW (Ex): Once per day at 11th level, when the Duelist takes a blow that is sufficient to drop him into negative hit points or total death, he can attempt a Reflex Save (adding their Blades Mastery bonus) with a DC 5+total damage taken to avoid the strike. At 17th level the duelist can make two such attempts a day (the only way this can be done on the same attack is if the duelist is wielding two separate weapons).

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New Feats

Coordination (general)
You have better control over your strikes when attempting to make additional attacks with a light weapon in your off hand.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack +5
Benefit: The penalty for all attacks made when fighting with two weapons is reduced by an additional 1 when the off hand weapon is light (effectively making the penalty -1).
Normal: The penalty for attacking with both a primary weapon and a light weapon is -2.
Special: Duelists can choose this as one of their bonus feats.

Greater Coordination (general)
You have complete control over your strikes when wielding a light weapon in your off hand.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Coordination, Base Attack +10
Benefit: There is no penalty to attack rolls when fighting two-weapon style provided that the off-hand weapon is light.
Normal: The penalty for attacking with both a primary weapon and a light weapon is -2.
Special: Duelists can choose this as one of their bonus feats.

Improved Reaction (general)
You have an uncanny sense for impending danger that allows you to respond to situations faster than those around.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13+, Dexterity 13+
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to all checks to avoid being surprised and a +2 to all initiative rolls (this bonus stacks with improved initiative).
Special: Duelists may take this as a bonus feat even if they don’t meet the prerequisites.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

Hmm, lets see, looks pretty solid. There are a couple of issues I'd disagree on you with. One is the skill points/level, which seems a little low. I know that you're working for this class to be at least moderately intelligence based, but I'll cite the arcane trickster as someone who is similarly dexterity/(primary spellcasting) as based. I would up this to 4+Int. Otherwise, I would say it looks solid.

Can anyone else seeing this being scary with a keen rapier with bodyfeeder?

 

[harmyn]

Thanks for the response. I was not certain about giving 4 skill points a level, but it does make sense if you think about it and it probably wouldn't overbalance them.

Everything else looks okay? Feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

 

[Khaalis]

First I would say I agree that it should be 4+INT for skills.

Now on to some of the constructive criticism.

* I would alter ”Canny Defense” to the one listed in the DMG.
“Canny Defense (Ex): When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.”

* I would alter ”Sneak Attack” to ”Precise Strike” slightly altered from the Duelist PrC. It should be a unique ability and not stacked with standard ”Sneak Attack”, as it is too easily abused.

“Precise Strike (Ex): At 5th level, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll. When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with an off-handed weapon or benefit from a shield bonus in the same round. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. At 10th level this bonus damage becomes +2d6, at 15th level +3d6 and at 20th level +4d6.”

* ”Blade Mastery“ I fear, is too powerful. By 19th level this grants +4 attack and +4 damage vs. armed opponents. This is better than having Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization. These 4 feats give you a +2/+4 with only 1 weapon. However, ”Blade Mastery“ gives +4/+4 with All weapons. The limit to use vs armed foes is not enough to counterbalance this IMHO.

* I would alter “Critical Precision” to simply grant Improved Critical as a virtual feat.

* ”Parry Deaths Blow “ might need to set DC at 10+damage. Personally not a big fan of this one though.

* For Coordination and Greater Coordination you need to take Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting into account. When you say “There is no penalty to attack rolls when fighting two-weapon style provided that the off-hand weapon is light” it opens a loophole that does away with the -5 and -10 penalties for the offhand attacks with Improved and Greater 2-Weapon.

Coordination
You have better control over your strikes when attempting to make additional attacks with a light weapon in your off hand.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack +5
Benefit: The penalty for all attacks made when fighting with two weapons is reduced by an additional 1 when the off hand weapon is light (effectively making the penalty -1).
Normal: The penalty for attacking with both a primary weapon and a light weapon is -2.
Special: Duelists can choose this as one of their bonus feats.

Greater Coordination
You have complete control over your strikes when wielding a light weapon in your off hand.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Coordination, Base Attack +10
Benefit: There is no penalty to attack rolls when fighting two-weapon style provided that the off-hand weapon is light.
Normal: The penalty for attacking with both a primary weapon and a light weapon is -2.
Special: Duelists can choose this as one of their bonus feats.

* Personally I might consider replacing "Improved Reaction" with an existing feat (rather than class ability) of Danger Sense feat from Miniature’s Handbook.

Danger Sense [General]
Prerequisites: Improved Initiative
Benefit: You may re-roll your initiative roll once per day.
Special: Duelists may take this as a bonus feat even if they don’t meet the prerequisites.


JMHO – YMMV, but this got me to rebirth the discussion on my own Duelist.

 

[harmyn]

Khaalis, thanks for the imput.

* I would alter ”Canny Defense” to the one listed in the DMG.
“Canny Defense (Ex): When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.”

I did some math and played about it a bit. you are right, the way I have it is too potent. If you had broken stats it would be possible for a human to start with an AC 22 and a halfling with an AC of 24 (if you have 2 18's, and I did say it was a broken or at least very lucky character. Going with the No Armor option is something I wasn't certain about either though.

How about an improving AC similar to the monk's but limited to being a bonus in melee combat and when not flat footed. Kind of like +1 at 1st level, +2 at 5th level and so on up to +5 at 20? Could be a bit more manageable that way. What do you think?
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* I would alter ”Sneak Attack” to ”Precise Strike” slightly altered from the Duelist PrC. It should be a unique ability and not stacked with standard ”Sneak Attack”, as it is too easily abused.

“Precise Strike (Ex): At 5th level, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll. When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with an off-handed weapon or benefit from a shield bonus in the same round. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. At 10th level this bonus damage becomes +2d6, at 15th level +3d6 and at 20th level +4d6.”

My only issue with Precise Strike is that while it does limit the type of weapon used (basically a rapier or Shortsword and possibly an elven thinblade), and only 1 weapon, they get it to EVERY attack. not just when the opponent is flat-footed or denied dex. I think over the long run the damage done would be at least as great with Precise Strike. But that's MHO.
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* ”Blade Mastery“ I fear, is too powerful. By 19th level this grants +4 attack and +4 damage vs. armed opponents. This is better than having Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization. These 4 feats give you a +2/+4 with only 1 weapon. However, ”Blade Mastery“ gives +4/+4 with All weapons. The limit to use vs armed foes is not enough to counterbalance this IMHO.

You do have a point on this. What about another limitation. That you can only be threatened by 1 opponent per +1 to use it effectively (and possibly that no other can be attacking them because the loner nature of the duelist fighting style gets disrupted by others "aiding" him. Also the opponent should probably be within 1 size category of the character using the ability. could that do the trick.

This could explain why duelists are great in single combat but start to fall apart when engaged in more standard tactical/group combat situations.
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* I would alter “Critical Precision” to simply grant Improved Critical as a virtual feat.

* ”Parry Deaths Blow “ might need to set DC at 10+damage. Personally not a big fan of this one though.

The virtual feat could do the trick. just not sure about it. In some ways it limits the bonus, but in other ways it makes it even more potent. This will require more thought.

And the DC should be 10+ now that you point that out. Its more in line with all other stuff like that, concentration checks and other bits of what-not.

* For Coordination and Greater Coordination you need to take Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting into account. When you say “There is no penalty to attack rolls when fighting two-weapon style provided that the off-hand weapon is light” it opens a loophole that does away with the -5 and -10 penalties for the offhand attacks with Improved and Greater 2-Weapon.

*DOH!?!@!*

I knew there was something I was forgetting about. Me'thinks I should watch my language more carefully. That is open to much more abuse. Power works in theory right but the bad wording does open up that loop hole for the mac trucks to drive right on thru. Good Catch.
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On the last part, I just am not at all pleased with the dangersense feat. But I did add two more prereq's for the other I'm thinking. Also requires Alertness and Improved Initiative. Alertness is iffy, a great many I know really despise it, might just make it improved init, but I could be mean. more to think aobut.
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Been busy, first chance to sit down and respond to your suggestions. I thank you for your time and critique. all is appreciated and needed. Let me know what you think of my thoughts for change. I welcome all thoughts and ideas.

Thanks to all who take the time to look it over and I am always open to more ideas.

 

[Khaalis]

How about an improving AC similar to the monk's but limited to being a bonus in melee combat and when not flat footed. Kind of like +1 at 1st level, +2 at 5th level and so on up to +5 at 20? Could be a bit more manageable that way. What do you think?

You could do either. The ability as written for the PrC = INT bonus spread out at +1 per level (thus gaining full benefit of an 18 INT by 4th level) or you could spread it out. My original version gave the following, but people felt it was too weak a defense.

Defense Bonus (Ex): Duelists are specialists at fighting solitary opponents and thus beginning at 5th level, they learn to better defend themselves when concentrating on a single foe. During their action, the duelist may designate a single opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks from that opponent. They can select a new opponent on any action. This bonus increases by +1 for every five levels of duelist attained after 5th. This defense bonus is lost if the duelist wears medium or heavy armor or carries a medium or heavy load. If the duelist also has the Dodge feat, the duelist must designate the same target for the defense bonus as for the Dodge feat, but all bonuses stack.

You could simple make it...
Defense Bonus (Ex): Duelists are specialists at fighting in melee and thus they learn to better defend themselves. The duelist gains a +1 competence bonus to AC. This bonus increases to +2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th level and +4 at 20th level.

(Note: Competence bonus makes it stackable with most every other AC bonus.)

My only issue with Precise Strike is that while it does limit the type of weapon used (basically a rapier or Shortsword and possibly an elven thinblade), and only 1 weapon, they get it to EVERY attack. not just when the opponent is flat-footed or denied dex. I think over the long run the damage done would be at least as great with Precise Strike. But that's MHO.

This is true, but it makes sense that a Precise Strike would be used more often, but it also deals less damage +4 dice by 20th. Sneak Attack makes no sense for a Duelist in that they do not use stealth and they do not specialize in creating a DEX Denial situation as rogues do. Precise Strike is about skill not opportunity. JMHO

You do have a point on this. What about another limitation. That you can only be threatened by 1 opponent per +1 to use it effectively (and possibly that no other can be attacking them because the loner nature of the duelist fighting style gets disrupted by others "aiding" him. Also the opponent should probably be within 1 size category of the character using the ability. could that do the trick.

This could explain why duelists are great in single combat but start to fall apart when engaged in more standard tactical/group combat situations.

Either I need sleep or this isnt quite coming across clearly to me. It seems a bit convoluted and a bit too much to figure out in each situation if you do or dont get the bonus. I think that using the existing feats might work better but as virtual feats.

Something along the line of:
Blade Mastery (Ex): During your action, you designate an opponent. Against this opponent you act as if you have the Weapon Focus feat with whatever weapon you currently wield as your primary weapon. The weapon must be a one-handed or light melee weapon. You can select a new opponent on any action.

Improved Blade Mastery (Ex): During your action, you designate an opponent. Against this opponent you act as if you have the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats with whatever weapon you currently wield as your primary weapon. The weapon must be a one-handed or light melee weapon. You can select a new opponent on any action.

Greater Blade Mastery (Ex): During your action, you designate an opponent. Against this opponent you act as if you have the Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats with whatever weapon you currently wield as your primary weapon. The weapon must be a one-handed or light melee weapon. You can select a new opponent on any action.

Expert Blade Mastery (Ex): During your action, you designate an opponent. Against this opponent you act as if you have the Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization feats with whatever weapon you currently wield as your primary weapon. The weapon must be a one-handed or light melee weapon. You can select a new opponent on any action.

Just a thought...

As for virtual feats, I am always a fan of using an existing feat as a virtual feat over writing new abilities. It makes it easier to balance, it uses the 'official' ability and it can be restricted by what requirements make it virtual. Just my personal taste.

On the last part, I just am not at all pleased with the dangersense feat. But I did add two more prereq's for the other I'm thinking. Also requires Alertness and Improved Initiative. Alertness is iffy, a great many I know really despise it, might just make it improved init, but I could be mean. more to think aobut.

If you are set on using the ability, I would drop alertness. It really doesnt fit the flavor of the class and is just an arbitrary requirement. Improved Initiative makes sense.


Hope that helps. Again - JMHO, YMMV