You asked~Female gamers

[Darklone]

Uhhh... want me to write a book?

What I find interesting in this debate is why women just don't pick role-playing up by them selves. It seems that men are expected to introduce women. Why is this, can't the women do this on their own?

I don't get it.

Well, Frostmarrow. Good question. Since I am whether eloquent enough to clearly express myself in English nor have the time writing books,...

I can only advise you to read some books from Simone de Beauvoir. Exactly that question is answered.

Edit: Forgot something. As usual. Why don't women buy that book? Actually I had several women who read or at least looked through the corerule books cause of the pictures (some of them don't speak English well enough to actually read it). They liked it a lot, not enough to buy it themselves, but most of them were asking questions about the game. Probably some of them will start playing (if they somehow find the time).

 

[Frostmarrow]

Re: Uhhh... want me to write a book?

I can only advise you to read some books from Simone de Beauvoir. Exactly that question is answered.

It seems Simone de Beauvoir wrote her full share of books and articles in her life. Could you please point out one book that might be of interest to me? (I don't fancy reading her entire collection.)

 

[Darklone]

Hmm... uh ... English title... google or something help me...

Ah. Here it is. The Second Sex.

Should be the one mentioned. Gave me some insight in female problems today. I don't say it will help you to understand women (grins)... but it may help to understand their problems.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Re: My 2 cents, well actually closer to a buck fifty

Personally, I look at games like Sailor Moon as ideal for this. It is based on something that girls may have an interest in already, it has lots of combat, lots of roleplaying, a relatively simple rules system and only requires the purchase of one book! Any other recommendations?

No, no, no. Or actually, this is very much matter of preferance.

What I've seen, boys have taken liking to Sailor Moon more than girls, unless I count yongsters who also like Pokemon, Digimon, and other cartoony things like that.

This assumption of girl-preferance was just mistake computer game market made, when they though girls would like to play 'barbie' or other such girl-stuff computer games. They didn't sell well at all.

Ideas here is based on my experiences only.

Only about 1 out of 50 children I have known in my childhood or while working in kindergarten liked to play 'nice' imaginative games. Most girls less are than interested, or even dislike Barbie's pink world. Dolls themselves, Barbie-sticker-books or are another thing entirely, they don't sell some 'boring story' as computer games tried to do. Also, badly made game, is still badly made came. My little girl-cousins prefer PSX games like Tekken, Spyro the Dragon, Crash Bandicoot, but they and their friends abhor 'games made for girls'.

Similar mistake was made about adult movies meant to attract women-audiance, but I leave this at that.

There is no girl-stuff/boy-stuff, there is just bunch of learned preferences, and variable amount of social ridicule/pressure, if one's choices don't take 'accecpted'/'usual' direction. This is not only about girls toy's/boy's toys thing, it is well seen in any 'sub-cultures'. Little girls don't automatically prefer pink, neither little boys blue. Boys don't always like cool weapons, and girls don't always like cute dolls.

Girls and boys do tend to have different mind-set into some things, but these are not the things, and neither is tendercy for role-play, be it violent min maxing or social charisma hoarding.

Also, most girls who are interesting of roleplaying (for reason other, than getting to hang with boyfriend, or 'that shy cute boy') don't want to be treaten like 'girls'. They want to be persons and be treaten like other players/dm. Women don't like to be socially victimazed in games any more than that newbie/new male-gamer does. So no wisdom check or 'fall in love' or crap like that, unless that's what other players get too. There is also matter, of boys not wanting girls in their games (any games), when younger, though there are exceptions. Same thing goes for 'irrating' younger sisters/brothers.

It mostly about not getting involted into hobbies/interests that would attract persons intrest to rpg:s. Also, it is matter of opportunity. My sister owns many rpg-books, but doesn't play anymore. Likes reading books, though. Also, there is part of 'what parents expect children like to play'-culture. I was lucky enough in childhood (up to age 16) to have little brother as best friend, which gave me opportunity to see 'best of both worlds'.

Yep, adult men are on avarage physically stronger (or should be, at least) compared to avarage adult women. Also, men on avarage are more agressive, which is simple matter of hormones, be there other reasons or not. Since human females don't go on heat or have agressive motherhood-protective periods like some mammals, this doesn't thange much within invidual's lifetime. This however, doesn't affect our role-playing, unless I count one guy's 'bad-dice rolling rages'.

 

[Darklone]

Re: Re: My 2 cents, well actually closer to a buck fifty

Also, most girls who are interesting of roleplaying (for reason other, than getting to hang with boyfriend, or 'that shy cute boy') don't want to be treaten like 'girls'. They want to be persons and be treaten like other players/dm.

Yep, adult men are on avarage physically stronger (or should be, at least) compared to avarage adult women. Also, men on avarage are more agressive, which is simple matter of hormones, be there other reasons or not. Since human females don't go on heat or have agressive motherhood-protective periods like some mammals, this doesn't thange much within invidual's lifetime. This however, doesn't affect our role-playing, unless I count one guy's 'bad-dice rolling rages'.

The first thing I see as reason why many girls in my groups or groups I know like to play male characters.

The second thing ... human females don't go on heat or have aggressive motherhood protective periods...? WHAT???? Excuse me... The mother of my godson is having some protective rage since she was pregnant. And she's not the only one. You should see her face if the small one is not well cause someone else had him on his arms... Better: You should hear her screaming and yelling at her husband for nothing. Simply because he didn't manage to calm the cuty. (which she didn't manage too afterwards)

 

[SableWyvern]

Re: Re: My 2 cents, well actually closer to a buck fifty

Boys don't always like cool weapons, and girls don't always like cute dolls.

Ah, that brings back warm fuzzy memories.

I once had the pleasure of sitting with the 4 or 5 y.o. daughter of a friend and telling her what all the pictures in my Encyclopedia of World Military Power were. She loves firearms, and I must say showing the pictures to her seemed much cuter than it would have were she a boy.

 

[WizarDru]

Re: Re: Re: My 2 cents, well actually closer to a buck fifty

The second thing ... human females don't go on heat or have aggressive motherhood protective periods...? WHAT???? Excuse me... The mother of my godson is having some protective rage since she was pregnant. And she's not the only one. You should see her face if the small one is not well cause someone else had him on his arms... Better: You should hear her screaming and yelling at her husband for nothing. Simply because he didn't manage to calm the cuty. (which she didn't manage too afterwards)

I'm guessing you don't have kids, right?

I know if someone mishandles my son or daughter, I WILL get angry. And if you we're talking a mother of a newborn, particularly a first child, expect the parents to be overprotective and short-fused. Not sleeping for months on end tends to do that.

That's more than a little different than a wild animal that goes into a hyper-protective mode where it won't let anyone, even her mate, approach the newborns. I won't even approach the potentially-flamebait issue of 'going into heat'. Yeesh.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Re: Re: Re: My 2 cents, well actually closer to a buck fifty

The second thing ... human females don't go on heat or have aggressive motherhood protective periods...? WHAT???? Excuse me... The mother of my godson is having some protective rage since she was pregnant.

Yep, they don't. Not the same way some animals do. Females don't suddenly turn 'queens', that get strenght to fight normally stronger species of their race. There is variation to almost every rule.

Also, human females certainly don't have heat-periods. Ever seen cats in heat? Nothing like that among our race, I'm afraid. Have made sort of mind-game, how badly such added hormonical function would wreck our society, you see.

Whatever changes humans experience is really minor compared to many mammals.

Yep, I've seen some women turn agressive, bitching and have mood-swings both negative and positive when pregnant, or while with young kid, but also those who don't have had any such behavior changes and some have become calmer.

Such things are easily misguided when opinion about behavior is based on one or two persons.

Humans aren't cats, ferrets or tasmanian devils. Though, admitted, some regonizable behavior patters can be found in all named creaures. Isn't biology amazing.

Hehe, but find your own truth. There are a lot of information out there.

Ah, but back to rpg:s. Getting girls to roleplay is not about gamesystem, if it is so simple as D&D is. If it is Roll Master, I meant Role Master, or Blue Planet, that could be different story, or actually not, since most roleplaying girls don't have problem with math, and those who are not so keen for rules usually are players only, anyway. Getting to hang around roleplayers helps a lot. It's not about boys introducing girls to rpg, its getting group of people together one way or another.

Also, if only role-players happens to be worst 'stereo-typical nerd/weirdo-squard' in school, most boys and girl don't like to hang around with sour-faced people who not only have attitude problem to life, but also don't know what 'maybe washing one's hair sometimes could be good idea' means. There are few people like that out there, rare enough, but able to give any hobby bad reputation.

Bad thing also is, that 'role-playing games' have obscure meaning in many people's minds. Many rpg-players have explained 'what rpg:s are' so many times to people who still don't get it, that they have become frusturated and might act 'please, not again', when someone sincerely interested person comes around asking about rpg:s. He/she might not get best 'story' out of such person.

This not truly knowing about rpg:s is one reason, why many people who would have liked them, are likely to pass opportunities to try and then perhaps later in life 'grow out of all fantasy stuff'.

Some rpg-players also act like dragons guarding secrets of their hobby. And some just can't shut about their game, their stats, their characters etc. Some girls are also truly offended, when some guy 'jokingly' cries out 'Oh no, more girls. Soon we turn into women's sewing circle'. Yep, I've heard this one.

Women/girls not playing rpg:s is part of same thing, why rpg:s are not more popular among boys/men. Besides that, haven't you ever told a girl 'No, you can't play with us' (to some other game than rpg, bacause you didn't want girl to join). And I've met many men, who don't think girls can be friends, and few who think similarly, but with exception of few 'ungirl-like girls', whatever that means in each specific case.

I found about rpg in one computer magazine in -83 for first time. It was -85 when we actually got our first rpg, with regonizable name D&D Basic, that is. You'd probably not heard of Finnish rpg called Acirema II I played earlier?

 

[Ashtal]

I think that there is an important difference to understand between human behavior and culture, and animal behavior.

Animal behavior is mostly static. There is some variation, but you will not see it widely different: An ant colony follows the same programming, a lion's tribe stays the same, a dog is best trained when relying on its natural programming, IE, reinforcing the pack standard.

Very few animals truly think outside the box. Dolphins, more advanced primates, can clearly conceptualize things in a way a cat or a dog can't. Some even can be taught to communicate basic needs. Primates especially have demonstrated unique tool use and tool making abilities. At best their social structure could be called a protoculture.

Culture, from a human standpoint, is much different. It can be both static over the short term (like, let's say the lack of advancement in the dark ages), but over the longterm it's VERY fluid. We don't adapt physically anymore; we adapt culturally and technologically. Humans are both persistant and resistant to change. Depends on their upbringing, of course. But human history has been changed over and over again by the merging of cultures, by war and the annexation of other cultures, by accidental disasters, by random chance and even by the force of will of one single person. Culture is a concensus. It is meaning that we have given to the meaningless. There is no such consensus in the animal kingdom because they can't (yet) ascribe meaning to the meaningless. Primates and dolphins are likely at the brink of this discovery. Language will take them the next step (if we allow them to get there) and even then with dolphins and whales, we find their communication abilities more complex every day, so who knows. But it's still not as complex as the human experience. Some day, perhaps, but not yet.

Boy, we off topic now, eh?

Um... Girls rule. And be it with the sword or the eloquence of a bardic song, we'll take on whatever challenges you give us with the same fire and love of the game as boys do.

 

[Balsamic Dragon]

Hmmm, my comment re: Sailor Moon seems to have been somewhat misinterpreted... It is true that SM is marketed to girls and has a lot of the doll/makeup thing going on, but that isn't why I think it makes a good RPG. What makes it a good RPG, especially for younger girls, is that girls are the heroes!

What I am looking for are more games where girls are the heroes as opposed to merely damsels in distress or evil witch queens. And yes, for a younger audience, I don't just want gender equity, I want to see more girls kicking butt than guys. That way you can have an all-girl gaming group where no one feels overt pressure to play a male character in order to replicate the feel of the game. Most successful RPGs borrow from a genre that is already established, and thus my pick of Sailor Moon was because it is an already established show that fits my requirements.

Try this as an exercise: name five books/movies/tv shows in which there are multiple heroes who are all or mostly female and all "Player Character" level importance in the series. Consider that as a start for an RPG.

Things that come to my mind: Sailor Moon (superhero/anime rpg), Charlie's Angels (spy/action rpg), Buffy the Vampire Slayer (horror/high school rpg), Dragon Riders of Pern (fantasy/sci-fi rpg), Xena: Warrior Princess (fantasy-historical/action rpg).

Only one of these has been made, but all could be great RPGs.

Balsamic Dragon