You asked~Female gamers

[LostSoul]

*In the thousands of years before the modern age in our culture (and in others), yes, women were at a disadvantage. We were breeders and breeders alone.

While I agree that women have been oppressed throughout history more than any other group, men have also been oppressed. Not as much as women, in my opinion... but life wasn't good for any of the lower classes, regardless of gender. (One example: warfare. Especially in this century. Lower class men show up by the millions to be told how and where to die. Not exactly nice treatment.)

Maybe I'm just a marxist.

Anyways, I think this thread is a little too political...

 

[PenguinKing]

I think that if the only thing keeping women from the gaming table was social factors, women would represent more than 15-20% of the population by now. Gaming has been around for nearly 30 years. Yet it is still an uphill battle to get females involved. Why??

I think there is a deeper, more salient characteristic that keeps women from the game.

I think you vastly underestimate the power of social pressures. I know this is going to sound arrogant, but when you come right down to it, 99% of people are sheep - they can't even conceive of bucking the status quo. And the status quo is "roleplaying is for geeks and deviants and axe-murderers".

So why the discrepancy? Why aren't males and females affected equally? Simple - women are under far more pressure to conform than men are in most arenas. I'm sure you can't deny that behaviour that would get a male branded as "individualistic" or "eccentric" will get a woman termed a "psycho bitch" (or some similarly charming epithet).

- Sir Bob.

P.S. Nih!

 

[WizarDru]

Just for a point of law:

I HAVE seen Tampon commercials on TNT. Apparently I watch it more than BMF does.

As far as more women watching Lifetime than wrestling, I'm sure that's true. But I also know that more women watch E.R. than either. A certain subset demographic of the female population tends to enjoy Lifetime's programming, but that's hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.

I have never had less than one female gamer in my group. I encouraged female gamers in high school, and I encourage them now. I agree with a large assessment of Ashtal's viewpoint.

The discussion has become sidetracked with an assumption that women, by and large, will not play roleplaying games. I agree that D&D, a particular roleplaying game, will generally appeal more to males. Because of how they enter the hobby. Children roleplay routinely. Adults do it as a part of therapy, as sexual entertainment or for public performance. Do it according to a script, we call it acting. Do it with a ruleset, and it's not that much different. My older brother isn't a role-player...but that has nothing to do with his gender...it has to do a variety of other factors. When I was in high school, lo those many years ago, the only way we managed to get a D&D club as part of the extra-curricular schedule was to make it a 'Table-games club'. (side note: the poor advocate teacher thought we'd be playing chess and risk, not D&D, V&V and Starfleet Battles ) Why has it taken so long for female gamers to join? We've already addressed that. Gamers in general still have little acceptance (but they've gotten a lot more since 1982), and female gamers even less so. Most D&D players in 1980 didn't even think to ask their sisters, girlfriends or female classmates to join.

The real discussion should be: how do we not let the would-be female gamers (and, IMHO, ALL would-be gamers) slip through our fingers? As Arcady says, gaming is a social disease. And games like D&D, in particular, work best with mentors. The only other way is for a self-starter to gather a group around and create the player-base manually.

A discussion of the relative propensity to violence amongst men and women is irrelevant, IMHO. I'm not an axe murderer, but I commit horrible attrocities as a GM. My players have never killed anyone (to my knowledge, at least ), but their characters routinely mete out 'rough justice' whenever necessary against the forces of evil. The individual player's preferences are only important insofar as their ability to get entertainment for an available game.

 

[LostSoul]

The discussion has become sidetracked with an assumption that women, by and large, will not play roleplaying games.

Don't forget that men, by and large, will not play roleplaying games.

 

[WizarDru]

Don't forget that men, by and large, will not play roleplaying games.

No, most men don't. 'Will not' means that they defintely would not, if given an opportunity. Since so few actually get the opportunity, it's difficult to say. The public at large doesn't play D&D, which I think was your point, and I agree....hence my point that we needed to get more gamers of both genders.

My point with that particular statement was that the assumption prevalent in the thread was that all other things being equal, women would not play role-playing, because women just don't do that sort of thing. Currently, if few men get the chance, even fewer women do. The subtext is that those who have, such as my wife and the wives of my friends, are mutant abberations for having done so. Ultimately, I find that far too reductionist of an answer to a very complicated question.

 

[LostSoul]

No, most men don't. 'Will not' means that they defintely would not, if given an opportunity. Since so few actually get the opportunity, it's difficult to say.

It's true that I can't say for sure, but I don't think that most men would if they had the chance. I can't convince any of the guys I know, friend or not, to give it a shot. Maybe I just hang around in the wrong social circles.

 

[ergeheilalt]

Hear it from the source

Well, I think that women gamers are a GREAT addition to the party. I have DMed two adventures with women. My first was the success story....the second...let's just say, It doesn't support my appointing .
My first game with a girl (yes, girl, I was 15 at the time) she was the one who did all the planning and got the ball rolling. She figured out what the party would need and overall it was a success. She fought well, choose her spells carefully and even got the party a greater reward for their heroic task (killing the bandit leader outside town).
My other campaign with a young woman was good, but she was not a big contributor. She was meek and stayed in the back ground, but when combat started, she was a blood-monger. I don't believe she was meek due to not knowing the gaming group (we were all friends, having known each other for two years be for deciding to actually play). So, I feel I have DMed the two extremes...the wise woman player and the blood-drinking woman. Neither subtracted from the game, but neither enjoyed themselves enough that they came back...
I think that women can be scared away from D&D by games with wild testosterone bursts. Men do play with a different mind set. I played into two parties, going on the same adventure. One was composed of 4 guys (and myself) and the other was composed of three women (and myself ). They were confronted by a gargoyle asking them to solve a series of riddles, after which they would be allowed access to the tomb. I was playing a semi-NPC, there just for back-up., and was not allowed to answer the riddles. The guys didn't even attempt to answer the riddle...went right hacking up the gargoyles. The women sat there trying to find the answer for 30 minutes. These different mind sets clash and can be divistating in effect.
The solution?
I don't know...but from my few observations, it appears that women enjoy the game more when playing in a group with at least another similar minded woman.

This is of course assuming a man can actually comprehend the ways of a woman...

 

[Darklone]

Hmm.

Since noone read my first comment to this thread (At least some guys said the same as if it were the first time mentioned here), I'll say some things again and comment on others.

First, It's still my very own humble opinion that a good part of female violence is subtle compared to male violence because females are used to be physically weaker. I've known a lot of female martial artists too who can fight very good... I fought some and sometimes I lost. But IME those girls usually had boyfriends who were even stronger. Not better, stronger. Women may be physically stronger in several sports like swimming in cold water or other things (wait a few more years till they overtake the men in those things at the olympics) but men are definitely better at everything that needs a huge load of muscles. Sue me, but most sports were historically developed to train and use that huge pack of muscles men have.

Back to the main theme: Why don't we have as many females as males? I wholeheartedly agree with Ashtal on most of the things she said (except that little part I added already). Wait some years till women catch up the headstart men have in most things. Sports, roleplaying, politics whatever.

To the guy or girl who said that he showed many girls how to play and that scarcely one joined but nearly all guys whom he asked: No accuse, but I think you or your group were the reasons. Or maybe bad experiences that girl had with male dominated groups or games. I asked many girls to play and till now only one didn't join. She never even tried and she's not that interested in fantasy either...

I think: It's not a matter of biology or psychology or whatever that keeps women from roleplaying (or sports, or managements among a lot of other things) but it's kinda history in our culture.

What do you expect? Most women today have to find a female identity first before playing something else. Ok, some of them DO play something else in real life... That's another discussion.

 

[Corinth]

I maintain that this isn't a problem.

 

[Frostmarrow]

What I find interesting in this debate is why women just don't pick role-playing up by them selves. It seems that men are expected to introduce women. Why is this, can't the women do this on their own?

When I was a boy I saw a box of a role-playing game in a toy's catalogue. The cover depicted, rather badly, a dragon. That was it for me. I just knew that I wanted to try it out. I bought the Steve Jackson solo-adventures and proceeded to the Lone Wolf-series of books. When I first got an opportunity to read the rules of a real RPG I just did. If I hadn't done it when I was 11 I would have done it when I was 12 or 13. The thing is that the idea of an RPG is so good, in my mind, that I would have found it anyway. I simply love it. (My guess is that lots of the guys on this board found the game on their own accord too.)

Now, why don't girls do the same thing? For example the Player's Handbook is a beautiful, hardbound book filled with interesting pictures. It's in full color and surprisingly cheap for a book of that quality. I would have bought the book in a split-second even if I had no idea what it was all about. Why don't girls buy it? Isn't it readily available in stores women visit? It's a pretty intriguing book on any account!

There are lots of women who aspire to become writers. This is an opportunity for a female writer. An opportunity for a full time writing job. How hard can it be to just decide: "Hey, I think I will make a relationship game set in the wonderful world of the Brontë sisters!"

I don't get it.